Italy leaving the empire?

[durvas]

yes but... it was inevitable, I've been reading a lot of the regional history lately and Barbarossa essentially lost control of Italy and the HRE never had the same control as they did in the centuries prior, if anything the HRE should maybe start off without Northern Italy.

You should not be able to perfectly prevent Italy from leaving just because you don't want it to, It should be despairingly hard as in reality it was already far too late by 1444

Lots of stuff in EU4 can happen that wasn't predestined to happen at game start, that's basically the point of the game. Game mechanics and the AI make this event a certainty, not chance, and that's why it's not good design. I know this event is supposed to represent the drifting of Italian states away from the HRE and the effects of the Italian wars, but it needs some tweaks for gameplay reasons.

 

[User29]

Lots of stuff in EU4 can happen that wasn't predestined to happen at game start, that's basically the point of the game. Game mechanics and the AI make this event a certainty, not chance, and that's why it's not good design. I know this event is supposed to represent the drifting of Italian states away from the HRE and the effects of the Italian wars, but it needs some tweaks for gameplay reasons.

I'm not saying predestined, I'm saying it already happened. I think the generosity of 56 years to flip the change is far more than should be in, but I do like that it can be prevented with concentrated effort, I wouldn't mind if say the HRE put their efforts on such an endeavor though, After all, Italy never stopped being de jure in the Empire until the Empire was no more.

 

[Krypheonix]

First, this isn't entirely true, historically good ol East Frisia joined the HRE of their own free will after game start.

The ironic problem is that being a HRE member is FAR too good. Human players jump through incredible hurdles to get a piece of the HRE bonus action, while if AI were made self-aware every nation in the game under a certain size would be spamming diplomats and maybe gifts and marriage offers at Austria in the hopes of joining too, nobody in their right mind would ever want to leave, Italian AI would even reject the shadow empire offer unless they had a good reason to not want the 35 prestige hit, such as holding a fragile PU. Instead, I assume for game balance and railroading, AIs don't join the empire, members don't make an effort to drag provinces in, and in general AI aren't even thinking about getting any reforms passed unless they're emperor, despite all the benefits early ones provide.

Perhaps, and forgive me for saying it, the problem is that being in the HRE is too much of a net positive. Perhaps there should be penalties. Maybe HRE members should be charged extra for coring HRE provinces or annexing another HRE member vassal. Maybe some of that manpower being thrown towards the emperor ought to come at the expense of their members. As it stands, the only reason you'd ever want to not join (if you can) or leave if in, is, government rank? I can't think of anything else. Maybe a little bit of penalties being thrown at members, specifically penalties that only members face and not non-members attacking/annexing in, would better help with this whole HRE situation. A little bit of adjustment and maybe, just maybe, the HRE would actually stop being an ideal place for anyone who wants to blob, since it would actually penalize its own members for blobbing off other members more than it penalizes anyone else from the outside.

The passiv Bonus of being inside the HRE without reforms has been removes since of 1.12. And of course there are mainly positive aspects of being in the empire for a smaller nation, who wouldn't want protection against outside blobs. The penanlty for being inside is already that you cant expand without pissing everyone of, except you are friends with the emperor

 

[Krypheonix]

I'm not saying predestined, I'm saying it already happened. I think the generosity of 56 years to flip the change is far more than should be in, but I do like that it can be prevented with concentrated effort, I wouldn't mind if say the HRE put their efforts on such an endeavor though, After all, Italy never stopped being de jure in the Empire until the Empire was no more.

All i am asking is to make HRE expansion more reasonable and flexible. and no, east frisia doesnt join the empire on their free will like in history, paradox did forget them. It would already be a great change if you could add provinces to the empire that already belong to members of the empire, which is absolutly reasonable. In that case Austria could add the province of ostfriesland to the empire, as soon as another member annexed them, for example hansa or münster.

 

[Hootieleece]

All I know is that it makes it easier for France to fulfill its missions. All that is stopping the BBB is Coring costs. (and its weak AI)

 

[User29]

All i am asking is to make HRE expansion more reasonable and flexible. and no, east frisia doesnt join the empire on their free will like in history, paradox did forget them. It would already be a great change if you could add provinces to the empire that already belong to members of the empire, which is absolutly reasonable. In that case Austria could add the province of ostfriesland to the empire, as soon as another member annexed them, for example hansa or münster.

And what if Brandenburg/Prussia conquers Polish land, should they expand the empire too? It just didn't happen

I'd prefer a small event to add East Frisia to the empire that the AI almost always says yes to.

 

[Krypheonix]

And what if Brandenburg/Prussia conquers Polish land, should they expand the empire too? It just didn't happen

I'd prefer a small event to add East Frisia to the empire that the AI almost always says yes to.

Well thats why we play the game, to adjust history

A strong Emperor could have enforced his will to expand the Empire. it's not like the teritorry is permanently property of the empire. once it is conquered back, or not anylonger controlled by a member, it could be removed from it again. i would have suggested that the Emperor can add provinces of members to the empire with a relation-hit perhaps.

You are able to unite the frigging HRE into a nation state, just adding some provs should be a minor thing rly.

 

[yerm]

The passiv Bonus of being inside the HRE without reforms has been removes since of 1.12. And of course there are mainly positive aspects of being in the empire for a smaller nation, who wouldn't want protection against outside blobs. The penanlty for being inside is already that you cant expand without pissing everyone of, except you are friends with the emperor

The passive bonuses were removed but the bonuses from reforms remain, and with the new IA system at least the early ones strike me as borderline inevitable. Meanwhile, those penalties are not for members. They are for anyone. An outsider taking a HRE member pisses off the other members just as much as a HRE member doing it. Unlawful territory can be asked for from non-HRE-members, and AE is doubled for them all the same.

There are simply no significant disadvantages to being a member but very clear and helpful advantages, therefore, everyone who can be a member should want to be one. This is bad design.

 

[User29]

Well thats why we play the game, to adjust history

A strong Emperor could have enforced his will to expand the Empire. it's not like the teritorry is permanently property of the empire. once it is conquered back, or not anylonger controlled by a member, it could be removed from it again. i would have suggested that the Emperor can add provinces of members to the empire with a relation-hit perhaps.

You are able to unite the frigging HRE into a nation state, just adding some provs should be a minor thing rly.

The Empire is much older than the starting date, Adjusting history is definitely the point of the game, but I don't want AI MING annexing AI Moscow unless there is a player to do funky stuff, That's generally the same position I hold on doing funky stuff like the HRE expanding, it really just didn't happen against non pagans(and East Frisia for it's isolation)

Uniting the Empire takes centuries of Solidifying the Emperor's position, adding a province even in 1444 would be contradictory to what the HRE has done throughout it's history.

Again, I don't actually mind the idea of letting the HRE expand, but either Paradox needs to remove it OR revamp it by letting the HRE expand in a bunch of funky ways, I'm mostly just posting now on the merits of it not being historical, I totally think it would be a fun gameplay expansion opportunity, Just don't think it's realistic.

 

[Krypheonix]

The passive bonuses were removed but the bonuses from reforms remain, and with the new IA system at least the early ones strike me as borderline inevitable. Meanwhile, those penalties are not for members. They are for anyone. An outsider taking a HRE member pisses off the other members just as much as a HRE member doing it. Unlawful territory can be asked for from non-HRE-members, and AE is doubled for them all the same.

There are simply no significant disadvantages to being a member but very clear and helpful advantages, therefore, everyone who can be a member should want to be one. This is bad design.

Maybe you are right. Somethign along the line of -5% tax efficiency to be paid as tribute for example. (Emperor wouldnt get all the money though out of balancing reasons)

But having an advantage as OPM being inside the HRE over an OPM outside HRE, is completly reasonable and should stay like that. All the bonusses are needed to keep the empire competetive against other superblobs. Otherwise they could have just made the HRE a super large nation-state with 80% autonomy everywhere

 

[Krypheonix]

The Empire is much older than the starting date, Adjusting history is definitely the point of the game, but I don't want AI MING annexing AI Moscow unless there is a player to do funky stuff, That's generally the same position I hold on doing funky stuff like the HRE expanding, it really just didn't happen against non pagans(and East Frisia for it's isolation)

Uniting the Empire takes centuries of Solidifying the Emperor's position, adding a province even in 1444 would be contradictory to what the HRE has done throughout it's history.

Again, I don't actually mind the idea of letting the HRE expand, but either Paradox needs to remove it OR revamp it by letting the HRE expand in a bunch of funky ways, I'm mostly just posting now on the merits of it not being historical, I totally think it would be a fun gameplay expansion opportunity, Just don't think it's realistic.

Well most of the things in the game arent realistic. Though I like your idea of friesland getting an event with the choice to join the empire, or remain non-member, thought about that to, would be very approriate.

 

[User29]

Well most of the things in the game arent realistic. Though I like your idea of friesland getting an event with the choice to join the empire, or remain non-member, thought about that to, would be very approriate.

I like to think the game *aspires* for realism, hence why doing a WC keeps getting harder with newer patches and coalitions try to coalesce when someone gets too strong, the Game is trying to limit your expansion because that's what would happen in reality, It might be totally my misperception, but that's what I think.

 

[Krypheonix]

I like to think the game *aspires* for realism, hence why doing a WC keeps getting harder with newer patches and coalitions try to coalesce when someone gets too strong, the Game is trying to limit your expansion because that's what would happen in reality, It might be totally my misperception, but that's what I think.

It would just generally be more fun and rewarding to play as Emperor and you are doing a good job of maintaining order and stability across the board, resulting in the HRE becoming more and more centralized (which is shown trough the reforms), and therefore you should also have a way to kind of expand like a nation-state like france does. Not controlling the provinces urself, but expanding the more and more centralized empire. Maybe a mechanic that enables as soon as you enact "ewiger landfriede"? Since internal HRE expansion will be banned at that point, its just reasonable to expand the glorious HRE onto europe

 

[Demetrios]

I agree completely, and even though I think it might be fun to expand the empire, I think it would be more along the lines of reality to remove it, Either way, fleshed or removed, I would be happy with it



Yeah, I'm glad Wiz said Savoy might be able to stick around out of random chance, hope that gets put in the patch later this month

Did he? I'm not seeing it in this thread, but I would be really glad if it does happen.

 

[Krypheonix]

WEll if you think about it, makes sense that Savoy probably wants to stay inside the HRE, seeing it has the BBB as neighbour.

 

[Jomini]

This is pretty much the idea. At the start of the game Imperial authority had been deteriorating for a long time to the extent that successive emperors had failed to exert control over the area. Full HRE membership was never really a good way to handle this region as the Italians didn't participate in Imperial politics like the Germans did and the Emperor was evidently not prepared to defend them the same way either. If you want to turn around a process that has been going on for hundreds of years you need to do something pretty drastic (and HRE emperors in conflict with the Pope is not by any means unreasonable given the history of the Papacy and the Imperial Throne). It's not necessarily going to be worth it but it is possible.

Wiki sums it up ok I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Italy_(Holy_Roman_Empire)#Staufer (if the link doesn't work it's everything atleast from the section called Staufer and onwards).

The only emperor in our timeframe that really seems close to be able to restore the status of the Empire in Italy was arguably Charles V (who incidentally sacked Rome, even if it wasn't the original plan) but rather than entrenching his Italian gains in the Imperial system he chose to let them pass to Spain (you'll recall he ruled both Spain and Austria at the time).
If you want to translate that to game terms (which is always a bit perilous but still) you could say he'd be conquering Italian land after the area had left and then made the choice not to add them back into the Empire.

Is there any way we could get this to exclude Rome, or conversely get the Pope to put Rome into the HRE (say if he is the vassal of the HRE in exchange for freeing the Pope from vassalage?). Not every external power was salivating at the demise of the HRE, Spain and England regularly wanted to bolster the HRE against the French and Ottomans. It seems a bit harsh to have both the combo of the Papal release mechanic (so even if you can help the HRE annex Rome, it will be released) and an inability to get territory into the empire unless you are emperor or very, very small.

 

[Aries666]

Two questions:
1. Does the AI Emperor understand what is going on? As in if the HRE doesn't conquer these provinces then everybody in this region will leave my empire.
2. The 50 year time frame is a bit short to be honest. Just think about all the AE that one will gather from conquering all those provinces. Could you make it a bit longer, I don't know, say 100 years. The time frame will be longer, so it went be such a mad dash to prevent the Shadow Kingdom event from happening and should still close before the Reformation starts to happen.

As Austria you can keep them in the empire with very little AE. Take Fruili off Venice use this to fab claims on Urbino and the Pope. Release Aquilia, ally Tuscany. Deliberately throw a war to break your vassalisation of Aquilia, ally them afterwards. Now feed the pope to Tuscany and Venice to Aquilia. If you have to (I'm not sure) take Rome for yourself.

 

[User29]

Did he? I'm not seeing it in this thread, but I would be really glad if it does happen.

Fair enough. I guess we could have the Savoy AI have a chance to remain in the Empire to represent this, but we still want them out in most cases simply because otherwise they block France from going into Italy.

 

[thErgonomic]

As Austria you can keep them in the empire with very little AE. Take Fruili off Venice use this to fab claims on Urbino and the Pope. Release Aquilia, ally Tuscany. Deliberately throw a war to break your vassalisation of Aquilia, ally them afterwards. Now feed the pope to Tuscany and Venice to Aquilia. If you have to (I'm not sure) take Rome for yourself.

I'll admit you can feed your ally to get around the AE, but my question main question is that does the AI Austria understand what is going to happen.

 

[Aries666]

I'll admit you can feed your ally to get around the AE, but my question main question is that does the AI Austria understand what is going to happen.

Almost certainly not but given that the devs have said their intention is for Italy to leave the empire it is unlikely they would make the AI particularly capable of preventing it. Realistically the only way would be for the emperor and maybe some of the Italian HRE states to get missions for conquering Venice and the Pope.