Italy leaving the empire?

[Vogelwiese]

I really don't like the way the event is right now. I think that at the very least Rome and Venice should be left out though i would prefer all of the Papal States starting provinces to not be included (+Urbino and Venice). So that would leave all of the Venetian continental provinces. An alternative would be to basically make it a war of independance style event were all the remaining Italian states fight against Austria + maybe Allies in the HRE though maybe an event chain would be better with a MTTH based on passed reforms, strength of Austria, conquered land in northern Italy and IA. It doesn't even make sense historically but seems to be just a NERF to the HRE.

 

[Zeek40]

Uh. Taking Rome will make Pope pretty angry though... How am I supposed to be a devout Catholic and also conquer & add Rome to the empire?

Just convert to Episcopal. As long as the priest isn't a woman, you won't be able to tell the difference at Mass.


Back to the topic at hand, were any missions added to help the AI try to keep Italy in the HRE? Unless they added missions that give the emperor cause to attack the papal states and non-HRE Italy, it seems like the AI would let this disaster happen every time.

 

[birincikalite]

Just convert to Episcopal. As long as the priest isn't a woman, you won't be able to tell the difference at Mass.


Back to the topic at hand, were any missions added to help the AI try to keep Italy in the HRE? Unless they added missions that give the emperor cause to attack the papal states and non-HRE Italy, it seems like the AI would let this disaster happen every time.

I think that was the point anyway. I didnt check for new Austrian missions, but all I got were generics untill now.

 

[bbqftw]

No idea, but I got PU'd by Brandenburg as Lithuania without even sharing a dynasty - just RM. I think the PU calculations got really screwed in CS.

This was possible in 1.11 with the proper succession war contestant.

 

[Sunspawn]

On the other hand, with Italy leaving the empire, the Italian wars CAN be fought - the Italian Ambitions mission has pretty nifty rewards too.

 

[imperator667]

In my game i got lucky and tuscany conquered everything except rome, i only have to take the venetian possessions on the mainland and conquer rome, i have 10 years left so it is certainly doable imo. i just hope the venice province does not count towards that goal.

 

[Wolfsgeist]

Wait, the Papal States are king-rank, right? So they cannot enter the Empire which means that a peaceful (or semi-peaceful) way of keeping Italy in the Empire isn't possible?

 

[Trin Tragula]

it seems like the AI would let this disaster happen every time.

This is pretty much the idea. At the start of the game Imperial authority had been deteriorating for a long time to the extent that successive emperors had failed to exert control over the area. Full HRE membership was never really a good way to handle this region as the Italians didn't participate in Imperial politics like the Germans did and the Emperor was evidently not prepared to defend them the same way either. If you want to turn around a process that has been going on for hundreds of years you need to do something pretty drastic (and HRE emperors in conflict with the Pope is not by any means unreasonable given the history of the Papacy and the Imperial Throne). It's not necessarily going to be worth it but it is possible.

Wiki sums it up ok I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Italy_(Holy_Roman_Empire)#Staufer (if the link doesn't work it's everything atleast from the section called Staufer and onwards).

The only emperor in our timeframe that really seems close to be able to restore the status of the Empire in Italy was arguably Charles V (who incidentally sacked Rome, even if it wasn't the original plan) but rather than entrenching his Italian gains in the Imperial system he chose to let them pass to Spain (you'll recall he ruled both Spain and Austria at the time).
If you want to translate that to game terms (which is always a bit perilous but still) you could say he'd be conquering Italian land after the area had left and then made the choice not to add them back into the Empire.

 

[ChildeR]

If you want to translate that to game terms (which is always a bit perilous but still) you could say he'd be conquering Italian land after the area had left and then made the choice not to add them back into the Empire.

However, in game terms this makes no sense. There's no benefit to not adding land to the HRE if you are the emperor. (Ok, you might want to wait until the right moment, but anyway.)

IRL there were good reasons for not adding your holdings to the empire, which I'd like to see modeled. Not the most important issue out there, but still.

 

[Demetrios]

actually i think that Italy did slowly leave the HRE during the 1500s, historically.

Legally, the Kingdom of Italy continued to exist as part of the Holy Roman Empire until the Treaty of Campo Formio in 1797, when a fellow named Napoleon was re-arranging things.

But for all intents and purposes, Italy was only very tenuously part of the Empire for basically the whole game period. After the mid-1500s, there is barely any HRE interference in the area - the main uses of the remnant Imperial overlordship in the era were in regards to Mantua during the War of the Mantuan Succession (1628 - 1631) and the final Austrian annexation of Mantua in 1708 (when the Duke supported the French in the War of the Spanish Succession). Beyond that, Imperial influence was nearly nil.

I do like the idea of Savoy having a higher than average percentage of staying in the Empire though. Savoy was the only Italian territory to be part of the Imperial Circles - it was part of the Upper Rhenish Circle - which shows it had a slightly closer relationship with the non-Italian areas of the Empire.

 

[Demetrios]

This is pretty much the idea. At the start of the game Imperial authority had been deteriorating for a long time to the extent that successive emperors had failed to exert control over the area. Full HRE membership was never really a good way to handle this region as the Italians didn't participate in Imperial politics like the Germans did and the Emperor was evidently not prepared to defend them the same way either. If you want to turn around a process that has been going on for hundreds of years you need to do something pretty drastic (and HRE emperors in conflict with the Pope is not by any means unreasonable given the history of the Papacy and the Imperial Throne). It's not necessarily going to be worth it but it is possible.

Wiki sums it up ok I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Italy_(Holy_Roman_Empire)#Staufer (if the link doesn't work it's everything atleast from the section called Staufer and onwards).

The only emperor in our timeframe that really seems close to be able to restore the status of the Empire in Italy was arguably Charles V (who incidentally sacked Rome, even if it wasn't the original plan) but rather than entrenching his Italian gains in the Imperial system he chose to let them pass to Spain (you'll recall he ruled both Spain and Austria at the time).
If you want to translate that to game terms (which is always a bit perilous but still) you could say he'd be conquering Italian land after the area had left and then made the choice not to add them back into the Empire.

While I agree with the idea in general, any chance of giving Savoy a somewhat higher chance of staying within the Imperial system? Savoy was the only area in Italy to be part of the Imperial Circle system (as part of the Upper Rhenish Circle), and it actually maintained its seat in the Imperial Diet as well, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Imperial_Diet_participants_(1792) , it's there somewhere around the middle of the Secular Bench), so it had a somewhat closer relationship with the rest of the Empire than the rest of northern Italy did. It would make for a bit of variety for the region if sometimes Savoy stayed within the Empire and sometimes it left...

 

[CrabHelmet]

Savoy remaining in the Empire also stops France enjoying frequent Italian holidays; so good for balance.

 

[Vogelwiese]

This is pretty much the idea. At the start of the game Imperial authority had been deteriorating for a long time to the extent that successive emperors had failed to exert control over the area. Full HRE membership was never really a good way to handle this region as the Italians didn't participate in Imperial politics like the Germans did and the Emperor was evidently not prepared to defend them the same way either. If you want to turn around a process that has been going on for hundreds of years you need to do something pretty drastic (and HRE emperors in conflict with the Pope is not by any means unreasonable given the history of the Papacy and the Imperial Throne). It's not necessarily going to be worth it but it is possible.

Wiki sums it up ok I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Italy_(Holy_Roman_Empire)#Staufer (if the link doesn't work it's everything atleast from the section called Staufer and onwards).

The only emperor in our timeframe that really seems close to be able to restore the status of the Empire in Italy was arguably Charles V (who incidentally sacked Rome, even if it wasn't the original plan) but rather than entrenching his Italian gains in the Imperial system he chose to let them pass to Spain (you'll recall he ruled both Spain and Austria at the time).
If you want to translate that to game terms (which is always a bit perilous but still) you could say he'd be conquering Italian land after the area had left and then made the choice not to add them back into the Empire.

I think something like the liberty desire mechanic could be useful for HRE mechanics. The Italian states could get higher liberty desire because of strength compared to the emperor if one of them grows to big and especially cultural differences (maybe give Savoy lowered liberty desire for historical reasons). This would also work with states like the Netherlands which are pretty strong compared to the emperor. To prevent Bohemia from leaving electors could either be forbidden from leaving or have it lower liberty desire drastically. And as is preciously said it could be more like a war of independance when liberty desire gets too high this would also make it possible for France to try to get more italian provinces (taking it from loyal italian states during the independance wars).

 

[thErgonomic]

This is pretty much the idea. At the start of the game Imperial authority had been deteriorating for a long time to the extent that successive emperors had failed to exert control over the area. Full HRE membership was never really a good way to handle this region as the Italians didn't participate in Imperial politics like the Germans did and the Emperor was evidently not prepared to defend them the same way either. If you want to turn around a process that has been going on for hundreds of years you need to do something pretty drastic (and HRE emperors in conflict with the Pope is not by any means unreasonable given the history of the Papacy and the Imperial Throne). It's not necessarily going to be worth it but it is possible.

Wiki sums it up ok I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Italy_(Holy_Roman_Empire)#Staufer (if the link doesn't work it's everything atleast from the section called Staufer and onwards).

The only emperor in our timeframe that really seems close to be able to restore the status of the Empire in Italy was arguably Charles V (who incidentally sacked Rome, even if it wasn't the original plan) but rather than entrenching his Italian gains in the Imperial system he chose to let them pass to Spain (you'll recall he ruled both Spain and Austria at the time).
If you want to translate that to game terms (which is always a bit perilous but still) you could say he'd be conquering Italian land after the area had left and then made the choice not to add them back into the Empire.

Two questions:
1. Does the AI Emperor understand what is going on? As in if the HRE doesn't conquer these provinces then everybody in this region will leave my empire.
2. The 50 year time frame is a bit short to be honest. Just think about all the AE that one will gather from conquering all those provinces. Could you make it a bit longer, I don't know, say 100 years. The time frame will be longer, so it went be such a mad dash to prevent the Shadow Kingdom event from happening and should still close before the Reformation starts to happen.

 

[grandad1982]

Wait, the Papal States are king-rank, right? So they cannot enter the Empire which means that a peaceful (or semi-peaceful) way of keeping Italy in the Empire isn't possible?

I'm in a papal states game at the moment and I joined the empire.

 

[birincikalite]

Two questions:
1. Does the AI Emperor understand what is going on? As in if the HRE doesn't conquer these provinces then everybody in this region will leave my empire.
2. The 50 year time frame is a bit short to be honest. Just think about all the AE that one will gather from conquering all those provinces. Could you make it a bit longer, I don't know, say 100 years. The time frame will be longer, so it went be such a mad dash to prevent the Shadow Kingdom event from happening and should still close before the Reformation starts to happen.

I'm pretty sure AI has no idea since there is no mission for it

 

[lolada]

Playing Austria atm, had a lot going on in the empire and around and in 1490 italian states left the empire. Still not a big deal, Austria need somewhere to expand, Italian states can't defend themselves from Emperor.

 

[birincikalite]

Playing Austria atm, had a lot going on in the empire and around and in 1490 italian states left the empire. Still not a big deal, Austria need somewhere to expand, Italian states can't defend themselves from Emperor.

For AI or human? Because for human austria its better to just feed there to vassal swarm.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Italy threads merged. Carry on.

 

[zamieo]

Uh. Taking Rome will make Pope pretty angry though... How am I supposed to be a devout Catholic and also conquer & add Rome to the empire?

Core it, add it to the empire, release the Pope again. That way, you'll get another member of the HRE and you get rid of the maluses. Keep the rest of the Pope's provinces.