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Well, the concept of battlecrusiers wasn't bad- they were the ultimate force in commerace raider destruction.

Problems occured when they were used as Dreadnoughts, ala Jutland.
 

stnylan

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Originally posted by KwangTiger
I think ppl should be informed if they don't know already that Battlecruisers were total shit ; they were supposed to be powerful reconnisance and ended up being to slow for reconnisance and too weak for the dreadnaughts.

In 1914 they were thought of as important.

And for mopping up colonial problems they probably were, or would have been. Think of the Battle of the Falkland Islands where Invincible and Inflexible did in Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

And their weaknesses were not appreciated really until after the war. Indeed, even in Jutland the main problem was that there was an unbroken line of cordite in the UK ships from the turrets to the magazine.

iirc there was in the Germans as well until after Dogger Bank, when they discovered the problem after a similar explosion failed to sink a German ship (but came jolly close). In Jutland therefore the German Battlecruisers performed a great deal better than their British counterparts (they didn't keep on blowing up, for example). They also helped to provide a screen for the High Seas Fleet to escape.

The Battlecruier does get alot of unfair criticism. If the post-war Naval treaties had never occurred I am sure some sort of Battlecruiser would still be in existence, as a sort of Colonial fast-response unit.
 
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I dunno. I'm not a naval expert or anything like that. But most things on naval tactis and doctrine I've read advise the same thing - sacrificing any other sort of capability for speed is a false economy. Big guns. Big armour.



At a higher level though, I think it's pretty clear that there was actually a fairly small window of opportunity during which the Imperial High Seas Fleet could have taken on the Royal Navy Grand Fleet and that timw window was pretty close to slamming shut by the time of Jutland. Certainly by the end of 1916 the Germans had missed the train if they'd wanted to fight a big fleet action.



Stnylan, you're right about the Anglo-French naval agreement by the way.
 

stnylan

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Originally posted by Top Cat
I dunno. I'm not a naval expert or anything like that. But most things on naval tactis and doctrine I've read advise the same thing - sacrificing any other sort of capability for speed is a false economy. Big guns. Big armour.

In the long run this is probably true actually. But in the short-term probably not. If you think that in WW1 a fast dreadnought could go at about 20 kts, then a battlecruiser that could go at 30kts becomes an attractive idea. Especially for colonial rapid reaction (like the Falklands action).

By ww2 of course engine tech had improved so i'll concede the point.


At a higher level though, I think it's pretty clear that there was actually a fairly small window of opportunity during which the Imperial High Seas Fleet could have taken on the Royal Navy Grand Fleet and that timw window was pretty close to slamming shut by the time of Jutland. Certainly by the end of 1916 the Germans had missed the train if they'd wanted to fight a big fleet action.

Very true. I do wonder why Germany didn't try to break-out earlier on. It was then that the RN was stretched most, what with commerce raiders running around the oceans, no one knowing which way Italy was going to jump, and before production picked up.

Stnylan, you're right about the Anglo-French naval agreement by the way.

Cheers for confirming that. :)
 

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Originally posted by KwangTiger
well IIRC the Kaizer was damn reluctant to use his ships in any action, even if it was a tactical victory like Jutland. And, by the time he noticed the blockade had to be stopped, it was too late...

He viewed his ships like a toy, and was afraid to use them . :rolleyes:

Hmm... Italy was a food importer. If the blockade works, and, being the med, it will, things in Italy would've gotten messy.

Would the red flag be raised in Italy and Russia?
 

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Yeah - the Kaizer didn't really understand you have to use the damn things for them to be of any use.

Just running the basic scenario through in my head though.

Italian East Africa would, I imagine, fall pdq. I am unaware of any Italian commander upto the calibre of that guy who kept us Brits running around Tanginika (sp?) for a year or more.

The French I guess would have ended up taking Tripolitania from Tunisia. Gibralter and the Suez would have been blockaded.

British and French submarines would have operated along the Italian coast in a similar style to how they operated in the Sea of Marmora irl and causing a fair measure of low-intensity havoc. Italian submarines would probably have tried to do the same - I guess along the French coast because of range issues.

The main problem I see for this hypothetical CP set-up is that the Austrian and Italian fleets both start out in the Adriatic, which is rather easy to blockade. The Ottoman fleet was mostly tied up in port countering the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

Would there have been a fleet action? More like the ww2 actions given the likely smaller sizes of the fleets concerned. I just don't think so. For Austria even more than Germany dreadnoughts were prestige items not to be risked for fear of making the Empire appear weak (and thereby giving hope to nationalist issues). Italy I think would have been more prepared to use her fleet - but without austrian support this would have been ver risky.

Of course the Austrians were hardly the best sailors in the world so who knows how they would have fought? If the Italian Fleet was blockaded in the Adriatic then I can see lots of fun and games along the Straits of Otranto. Especially if Greece goes with the Allies (indeed, assuming Bulgaria goes CP then I think Greece goes Allied by default) and thereby giving the allies bases they can use to maintain such a blockade.
 

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I think he had good reason not to know.. the German navy was practically brand new at the start of WWI.

Which is another point, a land based power such as Germany has no true need for a navy, I think he just wasted Germany's resources for his own prestige.
 

stnylan

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Originally posted by Burris
I thought that Jutland was a British tactical victory and a German Numerical victory..

And a British Strategic victory - yes.

Germans sunk more ships and most tonnage
British remained in control of the battlefield (the Germans were the ones that retreated).
The Germans never broke out, or seriously dented the Grand Fleet.