Italy and Fleet Questions

[TheMoe]

First, I've seen some recent YouTube "How to's" where the player is Germany and they say they don't like to invite others to their faction, because it makes it more difficult to get what they want in the peace deals. What happens if you don't invite Italy or any others, playing as Germany? Will Italy join the war on their own? If they do, but as their own faction, and I still manage to defeat GB and France, do I have to divide up the territories? Will Italy keep France and GB's fleet occupied in the Med if I don't invite them to my faction?

My second question has to do with naval power and battles. I have to say that the naval battles are absolutely my favorite part of HOI 4. I've just come back to the game, and I bought all the DLC, but I'm still quite inexperienced. My first peace conference was Monday, in which I defeated the allies before the US joined the war. If I plan on building up my navy and I want to go after the Soviet Union, and stay in my own faction, what should I be doing with my navy? I would assume that I would control most of the rubber in the Dutch East Indies and Malaysia through awards in the peace conference, would I use my navy as a convoy raider in that area to deny the resources to the Soviet Union?

Also, does the US enter the war eventually? I would think if I'm playing historical that they would go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor, if that's even a thing. I've never made it that far in a game to know for sure. If the US does enter, then I guess I could "Befriend Japan" in the focus tree and go after the US or help Japan conquer China or something? I want some fleet battles.

 

[Paul.Ketcham]

1.) Most important point first actually addresses your last two issues: if you control Indonesia and Malaysia, put your navy over there. There is a very, very high chance Japan is going to attack you over it. Holding it defensively while keeping a garrison army is probably fine while you focus down the Russians. I'm not sure about historic settings, but their wargoals are on the holders for Indochina, Malaysia, and Indonesia rather than specifically the Allies (plus a separate one on the Philippines). They may attack the US instead, but I wouldn't leave the Pacific undefended in any case (Axis-held Indonesia is my first target as the US if I ever see that).

2.) With regards to Italy, they tend to start their own war with the Allies sooner or later (either over Yugoslavia or Greece, with the former actually happening before Germany attacks Poland in some games). They start strong but slowly die off and won't have a navy for long if they're fighting both the French and British fleets (which are pretty big). Since Italy always scraps its incomplete battleships and has no carriers, they're badly outgunned in capital ships (France has fewer dockyards at start but a bigger fleet overall, and actually builds new capital ships unlike most AI who restrict theirs to heavy cruisers--or for the US and Japan, carriers).

Italy will contribute significantly towards distracting the Allies, but its a temporary distraction. Even when I'm beating the Allies I've seen the Italians somehow manage to lose in the Mediterranean (not always, though). If they're just fighting the French, they do tend to do pretty well (even with fewer capital ships, their navy overall tends to be larger by 1939, and their army is also pretty good against the French in North Africa if Britain isn't fighting).

3.) I tend to play with ahistoric settings, so I'm not sure what the historic US does if Japan or Germany don't declare war on them (presumably they do war plans orange and black and declare war in 1942, but I'm not sure). With ahistoric settings, I've actually gotten lend lease from the USA as Germany while fighting the USSR (about 60 trucks, but still).

Someone who plays with historic rules would probably be better for certain game information, but this at least is my take.

 

[TheMoe]

1.) Most important point first actually addresses your last two issues: if you control Indonesia and Malaysia, put your navy over there. There is a very, very high chance Japan is going to attack you over it. Holding it defensively while keeping a garrison army is probably fine while you focus down the Russians. I'm not sure about historic settings, but their wargoals are on the holders for Indochina, Malaysia, and Indonesia rather than specifically the Allies (plus a separate one on the Philippines). They may attack the US instead, but I wouldn't leave the Pacific undefended in any case (Axis-held Indonesia is my first target as the US if I ever see that).

2.) With regards to Italy, they tend to start their own war with the Allies sooner or later (either over Yugoslavia or Greece, with the former actually happening before Germany attacks Poland in some games). They start strong but slowly die off and won't have a navy for long if they're fighting both the French and British fleets (which are pretty big). Since Italy always scraps its incomplete battleships and has no carriers, they're badly outgunned in capital ships (France has fewer dockyards at start but a bigger fleet overall, and actually builds new capital ships unlike most AI who restrict theirs to heavy cruisers--or for the US and Japan, carriers).

Italy will contribute significantly towards distracting the Allies, but its a temporary distraction. Even when I'm beating the Allies I've seen the Italians somehow manage to lose in the Mediterranean (not always, though). If they're just fighting the French, they do tend to do pretty well (even with fewer capital ships, their navy overall tends to be larger by 1939, and their army is also pretty good against the French in North Africa if Britain isn't fighting).

3.) I tend to play with ahistoric settings, so I'm not sure what the historic US does if Japan or Germany don't declare war on them (presumably they do war plans orange and black and declare war in 1942, but I'm not sure). With ahistoric settings, I've actually gotten lend lease from the USA as Germany while fighting the USSR (about 60 trucks, but still).

Someone who plays with historic rules would probably be better for certain game information, but this at least is my take.

That last part about the US helping you with the USSR really made me laugh! You make some very good points in #1, which I can't believe I forgot. I guess if I'm on Japan's side and they have access to the rubber, then maybe they'll let me go? Yes, historically they do want the fuel and the rubber in SE Asia.

Thanks for all the info about Italy. I'm currently watching a proficient YouTube player going through the Italian campaign, and I see how tiny their fleet is compared to both France and GB combined, or even just against France. I also see that the player has run out of manpower, despite conquering Yugoslavia, and in the next couple episodes, Greece as well. They just don't seem to have the staying power I have experienced playing Germany.

If Japan leaves me alone and I do have control over SE Asia's rubber, and the US is not in the war, is there anything I can do with my navy to weaken the Soviet Union? I might puppet GB, and set up collaboration governments in France and Poland so I can draw on their manpower. Fighting the Soviet Union while being in total control of Poland to GB does scare me a bit due to the manpower issues, and I would like to do anything I could with my navy to weaken their industry.

 

[squid_hills]

If you control the Dutch East Indies, Japan will go to war with you over it. Period. It's a National Focus for them, and the AI always goes for completion with its NF tree. AI Japan will declare on you 100% of the time if you hold the DEI. You can have 100% positive relations with Japan and it will not matter one whit. The only way to avoid this is to dismantle the Axis and join Japan's faction. If you are in the same faction, Japan will do the focus to get the war goal, but will never pull the trigger on it.

This holds true for all nations in the game; AI will do every focus on their tree that they can, and will act on every war goal that they get, unless the war goal targets a member of their own faction. They might not act on the war goal as soon as they get it, but they will act on it eventually. The USA will eventually declare on you because they have a NF that gives them a war goal. Prepare accordingly.

 

[Paul.Ketcham]

If Japan leaves me alone and I do have control over SE Asia's rubber, and the US is not in the war, is there anything I can do with my navy to weaken the Soviet Union? I might puppet GB, and set up collaboration governments in France and Poland so I can draw on their manpower. Fighting the Soviet Union while being in total control of Poland to GB does scare me a bit due to the manpower issues, and I would like to do anything I could with my navy to weaken their industry.

There isn't a lot that your navy will be able to do against the USSR, its mainly just convoy raiding (focus on the Med; they usually trade via the Black Sea) or naval invasions (i.e. invading Leningrad). You do need to be careful about not forgetting that they have their own fleets and subs (one battleship in the Baltic, 2 in the Black sea that are stuck), but if you face them effectively they aren't going to last too long (except in the Black Sea, where you usually can't reach them).

 

[TheMoe]

If you control the Dutch East Indies, Japan will go to war with you over it. Period. It's a National Focus for them, and the AI always goes for completion with its NF tree. AI Japan will declare on you 100% of the time if you hold the DEI. You can have 100% positive relations with Japan and it will not matter one whit. The only way to avoid this is to dismantle the Axis and join Japan's faction. If you are in the same faction, Japan will do the focus to get the war goal, but will never pull the trigger on it.

This holds true for all nations in the game; AI will do every focus on their tree that they can, and will act on every war goal that they get, unless the war goal targets a member of their own faction. They might not act on the war goal as soon as they get it, but they will act on it eventually. The USA will eventually declare on you because they have a NF that gives them a war goal. Prepare accordingly.

Thank you! It's very helpful to understand how the AI works, and it's pretty funny that Japan would go to war with me if I'm their partner! Fairweather friends for sure!

 

[TheMoe]

There isn't a lot that your navy will be able to do against the USSR, its mainly just convoy raiding (focus on the Med; they usually trade via the Black Sea) or naval invasions (i.e. invading Leningrad). You do need to be careful about not forgetting that they have their own fleets and subs (one battleship in the Baltic, 2 in the Black sea that are stuck), but if you face them effectively they aren't going to last too long (except in the Black Sea, where you usually can't reach them).

Ahh yes, the Black Sea. I should have considered this! After all, it's about once a month that I hear some SU-xx just about collided with one of our planes or a Russian fighter set up an attack run on one of our ships in that area. They certainly consider the Black Sea their back yard, and they defend it well.

 

[squid_hills]

Getting your navy into the Black Sea to deal with Russia's is a chore, as you have to get Turkey to like you enough to grant military access and they don't seem to like anyone enough for that, unless your focus tree has a NF for it (I think Germany does, but it is in a weird place on the tree and I almost never see historical AI Germany do it). You're better off boosting fascism in Turkey and hoping they flip governments. Then they will almost certainly give you access. It's generally easier to camp in the Med and keep them bottled up that way. Alternatively, if Romania is in your faction, move a bunch of torpedo bombers and some fighters there and sink them with air power. Torpedo bombers are OP when it comes to sinking boats, but they need help from radar and fighters to find their targets. You can use CAS on naval bombing duty instead, if you prefer to keep your production lines simple, but I prefer naval bombers. Besides, they are very handy against the British and the French fleets.

 

[TheMoe]

Getting your navy into the Black Sea to deal with Russia's is a chore, as you have to get Turkey to like you enough to grant military access and they don't seem to like anyone enough for that, unless your focus tree has a NF for it (I think Germany does, but it is in a weird place on the tree and I almost never see historical AI Germany do it). You're better off boosting fascism in Turkey and hoping they flip governments. Then they will almost certainly give you access. It's generally easier to camp in the Med and keep them bottled up that way. Alternatively, if Romania is in your faction, move a bunch of torpedo bombers and some fighters there and sink them with air power. Torpedo bombers are OP when it comes to sinking boats, but they need help from radar and fighters to find their targets. You can use CAS on naval bombing duty instead, if you prefer to keep your production lines simple, but I prefer naval bombers. Besides, they are very handy against the British and the French fleets.

Thank you for the information and the tips. I'm still finding my way around the game, and I certainly appreciate help from the pros. Yes, I do remember seeing a focus "Befriend Turkey" or something along those lines, and I wondered why people would want to do that. It makes sense now when you look at it from Black Sea access, airfields, and possibly opening another front. This is quite a complex game!

 

[blahmaster6k]

You don't actually need to control the Straits to get access to the Black Sea as Germany or open up a second front. Paratroopers can drop on Sevastopol from Romania to open up that second front, or you can annex a port on the Black Sea and elect to build some destroyers at that port. The USSR's Black Sea Fleet is pretty tiny, so a dozen destroyers or so should be able to sink it and get naval supremacy. One thing I always do whenever I play Romania in multiplayer is to have my few dockyards building destroyers the entire game. USSR players rarely if ever bolster their black sea fleet, and if you can secure naval supremacy there you can open up interesting sneak invasions into the Caucasus while they're not paying attention. Even if the Axis loses in the end, it's always funny listening to voice comms at the end of the game with the Allies going "Wait why does Romania have 40 destroyers?"

 

[TheMoe]

You don't actually need to control the Straits to get access to the Black Sea as Germany or open up a second front. Paratroopers can drop on Sevastopol from Romania to open up that second front, or you can annex a port on the Black Sea and elect to build some destroyers at that port. The USSR's Black Sea Fleet is pretty tiny, so a dozen destroyers or so should be able to sink it and get naval supremacy. One thing I always do whenever I play Romania in multiplayer is to have my few dockyards building destroyers the entire game. USSR players rarely if ever bolster their black sea fleet, and if you can secure naval supremacy there you can open up interesting sneak invasions into the Caucasus while they're not paying attention. Even if the Axis loses in the end, it's always funny listening to voice comms at the end of the game with the Allies going "Wait why does Romania have 40 destroyers?"

Thank you. That's a very fascinating way to approach the problem. Sounds like you have found a way to surprise your friends during multiplayer games. Good for you!

 

[blahmaster6k]

Thank you. That's a very fascinating way to approach the problem. Sounds like you have found a way to surprise your friends during multiplayer games. Good for you!

I still remember one game where I managed to take Baku this way, and Russia had no idea for several weeks until I transferred the state over to Germany and the world news event popped up for the fall of Baku. My death came swift, 13 divisions of Afghanistan paratroopers instantly surrounded my port (I was garrisoning it), cut off half my marines that were in the Eastern Caucasus, and I lost 10 of my 24 elite marine divisions to the rapidly arriving Soviet tanks. That game would have been an Axis victory over Russia since they were on their last legs and had no tanks left at the end, but the Allies were good and won in the West.

 

[Anaraxes]

I would think if I'm playing historical that they would go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor, if that's even a thing.

The historical checkbox mostly has to do with selection of national focuses by AI countries. It doesn't compel any particular course of action other than the DoWs that come with a lot of those focuses, or specific historical dates for invasions or attacks.

 

[TheMoe]

The historical checkbox mostly has to do with selection of national focuses by AI countries. It doesn't compel any particular course of action other than the DoWs that come with a lot of those focuses, or specific historical dates for invasions or attacks.

Thank you. I'm starting to understand how important the national focuses are when determining the actions of the AI.