Italian research in CORE 0.11

[unmerged(51143)]

I think there are some things which may be changed:
- Italy cannot build new industries or naval bases! That is really funny...if you do not want to have a serious game start. I know Italian industry was not at the German or US level: but neither at a 3rd world level too. Technology "Heavy Industry '35" for scenario start would be needed.
- Marconi and his fellows/pupils developed RADAR research in the early '30ies at least, they arrived up to develop centimetric RADAR antennae in 1935-36 (even if no one in Italian militaries used RADAR until 1941...): thus I think "RADAR theory" should be among the done researches too.
- FIAT Cr32 instead of FIAT Cr20 would be better;
- I think that "Marines theory '20" should be added too, Italy had a marine infantry regiment from the end of XIX century, and made or prepared for several sea landing missions from 1911 to 1942.
- Italy developed mechanised agriculture during the years of WWI, I think it could be added among technologies Italy has got.

Italian researchers which may be added:
- Guglielmo Marconi, who studied and developed radio, microwaves and RADAR appareils, even the 1st microwaves-based telephone in 1935 (modern mobile phones use the same wave technology) and the first centimetric RADARs in the same year, and many others electronics devices - to die early, after a few months;
- Magneti Marelli, industry of electronics devices, from radios to RADARs, from TVs to communication systems, from magnets to electronics systems, for planes, cars, ships, ground stations etc.;
- Edison, the main electrical industry, with many power plants.

Italian researchers which may be improved:
- Arturo Crocco, a real genius, one among the fathers of jet flight, supersonic flight and space flight, who could be a better skill and more abilities like "electronics" (actually, he was a doctor in electronic engineering), "aeronautics" (he became an aerodynamicist too) and "planes testing" (he was a firm consultant and a air reserve general); he was world-wide appreciated in the scientific community of flight, and his son was among the main designers of Apollo missions (Von Braun boss).

 

[McNaughton]

It's all done for balance issues, your suggestions will throw off the balance of the game, plus they are very generous.

 

[baylox]

They can build naval bases, etc, just a little later. As McNaughton said, for balance reasons.

You're right about Radar reserach. Italy should probably have Radar Theory and then ignore all actual radar techs (for the AI).

FIAT CR.20 or CR.32... I'm not so sure it should be the CR.32 - that model is supposed to represent very old, outdated machines, circa mid to late 1920s. The CR.20 fits better there.

Mechanized Agriculture I need to do some research on before deciding.

The tech teams I'm very hesitant in changing. But I'll give it some thought and look at the numbers (Marconi will not be in if he dies so early).

 

[baylox]

I've read up real quick-like on Italian economy and agriculture situation in the 1930s and though they may have had mechanized agriculture their agricultural development level was very poor, even in 1938 (thus after the game starts). This is what should be considered and "mechanized agriculture" should be seen as the spread of this technology (and similar) rather than strictly if they had tractors and what-not. Better - more efficient, that is - agriculture frees up manpower for military duty.

It's not like better agriculture makes for more children which in time can be used for military duty - not in the scope of game that HoI is. Victoria perhaps and EU certainly, but not HoI (this was just a general comment and not a response to the issue at hand).

All that said, I wouldn't mind exchanging the agricultural techs to be more process and/or development focused, rather than focused on technologies, which are by themselves rather meaningless unless they are put to a correct use. Currently in vanilla HoI all you need to develop is the technology and you're good to go. For me (and I think the CORE team in general) that is too simplistic, which has resulted in the new tech trees, though a couple (Air Tech and Naval Tech) are and were more focused on the technology itself more than anything, while other developments fit well in the relevant Doctrines (organization and use).

 

[baylox]

Italian researchers which may be improved:
- Arturo Crocco, a real genius, one among the fathers of jet flight, supersonic flight and space flight, who could be a better skill and more abilities like "electronics" (actually, he was a doctor in electronic engineering), "aeronautics" (he became an aerodynamicist too) and "planes testing" (he was a firm consultant and a air reserve general); he was world-wide appreciated in the scientific community of flight, and his son was among the main designers of Apollo missions (Von Braun boss).

I've thought some more on Crocco, and tried to read up on him without any great degrees of success for the time-period we're dealing with, but looking at what you're proposing and what I've read on him I do have a few comments.
Aeronautics is probably not a suitable skill for him to have since he didn't actually design aircraft during the time-period (even if he had the capability he was just not used that way).
Aircraft Testing is a doctrine-skill and not very suitable on it's own. Italo Balbo and Rino Fougier already have it in conjunction with other suitable skills, so giving it to Crocco would just be confusing.
Electronics is a possibility, but I hesitate here for two reasons. The first is that it brings him very close to actual units research and the other is that most techs that have electronics is outside what he did.
On the other hand I could be convinced to either raise his skill one or two points OR give him management instead of mathematics. I think I want to test this before making up my mind though, to make sure it doesn't throw off things in-game.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

I've thought some more on Crocco, and tried to read up on him without any great degrees of success for the time-period we're dealing with, but looking at what you're proposing and what I've read on him I do have a few comments.
Aeronautics is probably not a suitable skill for him to have since he didn't actually design aircraft during the time-period (even if he had the capability he was just not used that way).
Aircraft Testing is a doctrine-skill and not very suitable on it's own. Italo Balbo and Rino Fougier already have it in conjunction with other suitable skills, so giving it to Crocco would just be confusing.
Electronics is a possibility, but I hesitate here for two reasons. The first is that it brings him very close to actual units research and the other is that most techs that have electronics is outside what he did.
On the other hand I could be convinced to either raise his skill one or two points OR give him management instead of mathematics. I think I want to test this before making up my mind though, to make sure it doesn't throw off things in-game.

I think mathematics should be kept, Crocco was a great mathemtician but not a great manager.
May be other reasearchers in other countries, as Von Braun, could have management added.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

They can build naval bases, etc, just a little later. As McNaughton said, for balance reasons.

You're right about Radar reserach. Italy should probably have Radar Theory and then ignore all actual radar techs (for the AI).

FIAT CR.20 or CR.32... I'm not so sure it should be the CR.32 - that model is supposed to represent very old, outdated machines, circa mid to late 1920s. The CR.20 fits better there.

Mechanized Agriculture I need to do some research on before deciding.

The tech teams I'm very hesitant in changing. But I'll give it some thought and look at the numbers (Marconi will not be in if he dies so early).

The fact is Regia Aeronautica used FIAT Cr32 for fighter purposes until late '30ies, even together with Cr42, as during Spanish Civil War.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

It's all done for balance issues, your suggestions will throw off the balance of the game, plus they are very generous.

I believed that game was trying to represent historical truth at the best level possible. My suggestions are not generous at all: surely Italy will become a great power by doing what she has done since middle XIX century at least, like building naval bases and factories.
Maybe then heavy industry '35 is an absurd technology itself: countries should be able to build naval bases or factories by developing just industry '35. How do you believe Italy built her ports and industry, the god of steel and concrete came from heaven to build them?
The other suggestions are all historical-like. I think there are, maybe, many more research teams and technologies to modify for other countries: I suggested some (not all I think) for Germany too.

 

[baylox]

I think mathematics should be kept, Crocco was a great mathemtician but not a great manager.
May be other reasearchers in other countries, as Von Braun, could have management added.

But you're not looking at the in-game effects of things, you're just making a lot of loose suggestions. Now regarding Crocco, he has Mathematics in vanilla so there must be some reason Paradox gave him that and I'll take a look see what he's suitable for, but the positions he held, the places he did his work from, what he contributed to Italy in this time-period is equivalent to the game skill management. Not being very good at it is a good reason to keep his skill level down. Again, I'll take a look when I can. Giving Crocco management is just an idea though, I don't know yet how it'll work - if at all.
As for von Braun and others... they don't really need management on the other hand. I've played Germany a lot and never considered that he was lacking management and I think the same goes for similar teams elsewhere.

The fact is Regia Aeronautica used FIAT Cr32 for fighter purposes until late '30ies, even together with Cr42, as during Spanish Civil War.

I know, but that doesn't change my earlier statement. With the current models and what they're supposed to represent, the CR.32 isn't an alternative to the CR.20, it's an alternative to the CR.42. With that in mind I chose to go with the CR.42 (since it best matched the specs it was supposed to represent), though it could perhaps work as the CR.32 instead. If I had kept two models of interwar fighters (as vanilla has) then the CR.32 would've been a perfect fit in between the other two, but because of a lack of available model slots I had to cut something out.

I believed that game was trying to represent historical truth at the best level possible. My suggestions are not generous at all: surely Italy will become a great power by doing what she has done since middle XIX century at least, like building naval bases and factories.
Maybe then heavy industry '35 is an absurd technology itself: countries should be able to build naval bases or factories by developing just industry '35. How do you believe Italy built her ports and industry, the god of steel and concrete came from heaven to build them?
The other suggestions are all historical-like. I think there are, maybe, many more research teams and technologies to modify for other countries: I suggested some (not all I think) for Germany too.

Italy was not in a position to drastically expand her industrial base at this point in time (and took their time post-war, which reinforces the point) which is why they are limited in the pre-war years.
If you want an in-game explanation for why not all countries can build industry, naval bases, etc then here it is: The Great Depression. Any ability a country had to produce industry during, say, the Great War would've been more or less nullified with the Depression and only those countries which has a long and wide industrial tradition (as defined by the Fully Industrialized tech) would have the ability to keep expanding without having fully thrown off the Depression (symbolized, in part then, by the 1939 Heavy Industry tech). These effects (building IC, naval bases) could, perhaps, be moved to the 1938 Recovery techs instead (or in addition), though. I'll give that some thought since there are other implications with doing so.

To summarize I think the historical representation is quite adequate.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

Italy was not in a position to drastically expand her industrial base at this point in time (and took their time post-war, which reinforces the point) which is why they are limited in the pre-war years.
If you want an in-game explanation for why not all countries can build industry, naval bases, etc then here it is: The Great Depression. Any ability a country had to produce industry during, say, the Great War would've been more or less nullified with the Depression and only those countries which has a long and wide industrial tradition (as defined by the Fully Industrialized tech) would have the ability to keep expanding without having fully thrown off the Depression (symbolized, in part then, by the 1939 Heavy Industry tech). These effects (building IC, naval bases) could, perhaps, be moved to the 1938 Recovery techs instead (or in addition), though. I'll give that some thought since there are other implications with doing so.

To summarize I think the historical representation is quite adequate.

Italian society was hit not more nor less than any other Western society by Great Depression, but Mussolini's governement developed an industrial recovery plan which saved Italian industry by the tragedy. In the second half of '30ies, Italy has nearly fully recovered from '29 effects, her manufacturing production was expanding, and lifestyle was enriching too: surely Italy was not at the same level of wealth of UK or Germany, neither it was a destroyed country. Italy could simply not afford two goals at once, becoming a great industrialised country and a great military power (maybe neither one: without being an industrial power, Italy could not be a military power): in the game the same would happen, or Italy builds many industries (not so many I think: 3 or 4 per year maximum), or Italy builds ships planes tanks etc. (of low-level quality because of poor research level Italy has).
Moreover, there are no technical reason which can allow a nation to build airports and railways but not harbors and factories.

 

[baylox]

Things will remain as they are for the time being, as I haven't seen anything yet to suggest Italy being a Fully Industrialized country is a good solution (or changing the effects around to suit your proposal, for early ability of building IC and whatnot). Gamebalance is an issue as well here, after all, but even looking at things historically I do not see it happening.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

I examined tech trees better: I think very bad about it, too much confused and awkward, instead of simple and direct. There are some technologies deactivated which I cannot know why, others that for now I cannot develop and it is very difficult to find which techs I have to research before.
I cannot find how to have a tech that allow Italy to build factories and ports because being semi-industrialised country (that I think it is right - but I think it should have different consequences) I cannot research industrialised country, only to make one example.
One more thing, that is a very bad historical error: Regia Aeronautica is army-depending! There is no way, evidently game balance has been made without knowing nor trying to know historical facts: Regia Aeronautica was one of the first to be an indipendent armed force in the world, since a few years after WWI; and that is funny, one of the main problems of Italian army-air and naval-air coordination was that Air Force wanted to preserve its indipendence and autonomous operations, while Army and Navy needed a dedicated air support. But forget real history, I know that game balance, Italian poor abilities etc. but at least let me research it! I cannot even research this because a key tech is deactivated and then not researchable anyway.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

I am awfully sorry and I find a bug, all together.
Both "industry '35" and "heavy industry '35" allow "new building: industrial etc.": is it a double useless function? In that case, or we erase it from "industry '35", or balancing powers by not allowing some to build naval bases is useless too...
Now, I have to understand why Italy, 5th naval world power, has not convoy escorts.

 

[baylox]

No need to jump to conclusions on matters we haven't discussed yet.

I examined tech trees better: I think very bad about it, too much confused and awkward, instead of simple and direct. There are some technologies deactivated which I cannot know why, others that for now I cannot develop and it is very difficult to find which techs I have to research before.

You have to look for the little "R" symbols, just like in vanilla, but I also recommend reading the FAQ I'm slowly building up for some of these issues. The basic layout and functionality of the tech tree won't change. Vanilla = simple and direct, CORE = complex and more detailed.

I cannot find how to have a tech that allow Italy to build factories and ports because being semi-industrialised country (that I think it is right - but I think it should have different consequences) I cannot research industrialised country, only to make one example.

1939 Heavy Industry. It gets activated when you complete Depression Recovery and research 1939 Base Industry. Fully Industrialized is non-researchable on purpose - no nation can, in the limited timeline available, make the vast changes implied.

One more thing, that is a very bad historical error: Regia Aeronautica is army-depending! There is no way, evidently game balance has been made without knowing nor trying to know historical facts: Regia Aeronautica was one of the first to be an indipendent armed force in the world, since a few years after WWI; and that is funny, one of the main problems of Italian army-air and naval-air coordination was that Air Force wanted to preserve its indipendence and autonomous operations, while Army and Navy needed a dedicated air support.

How did they operate in reality? Was their focus tactical support or was it strategic operations? What little I've read of the Regia Aeronautica is that it operated on a tactical level primarily, in support of the Army, but I could very well be wrong here. If you have access to history of the air arm, preferably in English, for it's status in 1936 I would very much like to read it (Italy is one of the nations I don't know too much about - but since I'm only human I can't know everything about everything, which you seem to think I should).

 

[baylox]

I am awfully sorry and I find a bug, all together.
Both "industry '35" and "heavy industry '35" allow "new building: industrial etc.": is it a double useless function? In that case, or we erase it from "industry '35", or balancing powers by not allowing some to build naval bases is useless too...
Now, I have to understand why Italy, 5th naval world power, has not convoy escorts.

Good spotting, the 1935 Base Industry shouldn't be activating IC for building, but the 1935 Heavy Industry should. 1935 Base should, however, allow the other types of buildings it already does.

Thanks!

 

[unmerged(51143)]

Good spotting, the 1935 Base Industry shouldn't be activating IC for building, but the 1935 Heavy Industry should. 1935 Base should, however, allow the other types of buildings it already does.

Thanks!

Next time, I will let fall the question
At least, tell me how could I research heavy industry or electronics as Italy!
I think the CORE tech tree has the same bad error of the Vanilla tree, but multiplied: it is too much stiff, strict, I think a good player should have the chance of improving his nation during the years, e.g. researching some technologies after some years Italy could pass from semi-industrialised to industrialised country, maybe techs long to be researched so the player would have to choose if making a modern country or making a war.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

Another idea, if possible, would be to make the player able to change tech tree for Army and Naval doctrines, of course by beginning from the basic: e.g., I am Italy and I want to copy German-like Army organisation and training, I can start to research by the first tech of "mobility" tree, abandoning all previous researched techs (so, for a while, I would have an Army at the same level of Persia, waiting to be upgraded).

 

[baylox]

Next time, I will let fall the question
At least, tell me how could I research heavy industry or electronics as Italy!

I told you two posts back how to research Heavy Industry, please read my entire posts - I don't really like repeating myself.

I think the CORE tech tree has the same bad error of the Vanilla tree, but multiplied: it is too much stiff, strict, I think a good player should have the chance of improving his nation during the years, e.g. researching some technologies after some years Italy could pass from semi-industrialised to industrialised country, maybe techs long to be researched so the player would have to choose if making a modern country or making a war.

Well that's the way tech trees work in HoI so deal with it or play something else. I've explained why no nation will be allowed to progress from Semi to Fully Industrialized (though I had plans, once, to allow the Soviet Union to move up towards the end of the time span and with Doomsday that may come to pass - we'll see). Italy is and will remain Semi for the time-period, including Doomsday. I understand that you like Italy very much, but it doesn't change the fact that Italy was a second-string nation, albeit one of the largest ones. Please try and understand this basic fact. It is not historical, in any way, to allow Italy to become on par with Germany, Great Britain or the United States in industrial quality and spread. Heck, even today I would hesitate to call Italy a Fully Industrialized country considering the state of the southern part of the country. Just like China is barely a Semi Industrialized nation today (using the in-game terms as applicable for the 1930s and -40s).

The choice between making industry or making war is rather irrelevant - this is a war game, you need to build for war. If this was Victoria or EU things would be very different. Perhaps you should try Victoria and the VIP mod instead, if you want to build up Italy?

 

[unmerged(51143)]

IHeck, even today I would hesitate to call Italy a Fully Industrialized country considering the state of the southern part of the country.

This could be considered an insult, and it is totally wrong: may I remember you we are the 6th world industrial power (not considering China), and that our GNP is very close to French and British one (both two overtaken by China in 2005 as Italy)? And do you believe French and Britain are all rich and heavy industrilised? But you make one more error: modern countries are post-industrialised, industry is no more the only great wealth-maker.
Southern Italy has big industrial areas (with one of the biggest European steel factories in Taranto, or the big ports of Taranto, Naples and Gioia Tauro, car-making in Naples, shipyards etc.), instead Northern is more widely industrilised beacuase of many middle and light factories even in small town, supporting other heavy industries or producing manufactured articles for direct selling or for foreign factories (e.g. all the luxury parts of German luxury cars): surely Southern Italy is not the best place for richness or production, but Northern Italy is one of the wealthiest and most productive areas in Europe.
If you prefer to point on military industry, Italy is today able to produce everything by itself, from missiles to planes, guns to rifles, tanks to lorries, RADARs to high-technologies devices; moreover, we have some world-class (or even world-leader) firms, as Beretta for rifles and pistols, Oto-Melara for light guns, AerMacchi for light ground-support and training planes, Agusta (also owner of Westland) for helicopters.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

I told you two posts back how to research Heavy Industry, please read my entire posts - I don't really like repeating myself.

Sorry, lost it trying to manage with tech-tree.