Italian minors need better military national ideas

[B92FS]

Unit cost modifiers could be a great idea! If you want a hight quality army you must spend (buy and maintain) a lot more than normal
This could help a lot nations like Russia

 

[Zak Preston]

In MP none cares about tax, production or trade NIs. Everyone is obsessed with general stats and quality + quantity boosts. Even siege ability, fort defence, attrition for enemies and so on are quite minor. This is one of the reasons why almost none takes trade, expansion, diplomatic, influence or administrative idea: they don't give any direct military boosts and have no reasonable military policies.

I wouldn't call "homogenisation" adding a few minors some military boosts. Previously Burgundy got +10% Morale to be more competitive vs France. I think it would be a good idea to do the same with Italian minors.

@Mortheim

Spoiler

Russian ideas are weak for MP and I'd gladly swap any of Russian NI for some Disc and/or Morale. This would allow to add players on a horde and would add more competition in a region. Not placing a horde player gives Russia lots of free development to consume and thus more odds against PLC. Also your starting math doesn't work well, since Russian player gets mil tech much faster, has a godlike 4-shock general and after consuming Novgorod Muscovite FL reaches 40.

 

[B92FS]

I never played a MP game but I think that economy is a little important if you want maintain a large army/navy

 

[Zak Preston]

I never played a MP game but I think that economy is a little important if you want maintain a large army/navy

It's secondary, because when you have a good army that you can't fully maintain, you can take loans or subsidies and take all the rich lands and money you need.

 

[hashinshin]

I never played a MP game but I think that economy is a little important if you want maintain a large army/navy

Everyone goes economic.

With that alone you can afford full merc lines by the 1600s with any country. My mod increased maintenance per tech to 2.5% from 1%, increased cannon cost to 40 from 30, reduced tier 2 production buildings to 85% from 100%... and I STILL afforded enough mercs to be able to fight against Russia for a decade and drain HIM of manpower ad Sweden.

There's too much money in EU4. With even a little country management and manufactories your income will shoot out of control. In vanilla everyone even goes quantity because you can easily afford the 50% extra force limit no problem.

 

[Mortheim]

Meh. Whole military system should be reworked. Atm it is stupid and encourages only one certain playstyle (quality+mercs), while there are nations that aren't suited for that playstyle. It is just strange - you add countries with different gameplay, but encourage (not directly, ofc) one certain playstyle.



@Zak Preston

Spoiler

Russian ideas are weak for MP and I'd gladly swap any of Russian NI for some Disc and/or Morale. This would allow to add players on a horde and would add more competition in a region. Not placing a horde player gives Russia lots of free development to consume and thus more odds against PLC. Also your starting math doesn't work well, since Russian player gets mil tech much faster, has a godlike 4-shock general and after consuming Novgorod Muscovite FL reaches 40.

Your first two points aren't reliable. General can live for 30-40 years or can die on first day.
Ivan has chance of dying. Vasiliy can reign for too long.
Yeah. When you eat WHOLE Novgorod. This will happen by 1465. Before this happens Poland will already have union and part of Teutons. Also, Russian player should choose between rising autonomy or rebels. And even if we don't consider this - Muscovy will still have 8k less. With Ryazan and Tver this goes to 4k difference. And now you should see the difference in efforts - a lot of admin points, some manpower, at least 20 years from the start. Or just accept event.
Also, Vasiliy is 3-1-2(6) while Kazimierz is 4-4-1(9).
Continuing some fun math - Poland after full annexation of TO will have 299 development, Muscovy will have 393. Only one hundred more. If we will count development with vassals - Russia loses. And, well, it won't be able to advance really far in admin tech. And income won't be that big. 24 Russian ducats vs 19 Polish ducats with 15 Lithuanian ducats. So, who will win merc spam?) And, really, do you believe that Russian general will survive till 1465?) In hands of equal players Russia will lose unless Poland has problems on West or South fronts.
Also, I love your "free" development with not accepted culture, heathen religion and cost in admin cost. Considering, that there will be alliances between hordes... You will invest the same amount, but you wouldn't need to think too much.

 

[Dnote]

What exactly is the goal here? In MP, small nations don't survive without the help of large nations, it's a blobbing game. Adjusting the NI of a bunch of Italian minors isn't going to change anything. Though I wouldn't mind seeing a bonus to Catholic nations if the Kingdom of God is formed, to encourage players to help the Papal States acheive that in MP.

However, if there was a need to change the Italian minors, it should be a single NI that makes mercenaries more powerful for them, because that essentially what the region was renowned for in this era. Constant warfare with heavy utilization of mercs, not regular standing armies.

 

[B92FS]

I also think that Italian minors are ok (-25% mercenary maintenance for Venice could make historical sense). I don't know if in MP Italy are weak or not, but if we want buff Italian (Italy) military ideas there are 4 ways:

1. nerf other military ideas but seems that the most of player don't like this
2. simply and brutally add a new bonus, historical or not, like proposed in the first post
3. think historically what "EUIV Italy" represent, for example if it is mainly the Napoleonic Italy it could be have more militaristic (land) idea and less naval and economic
4. If we think to Italy as an union of Italian states can modify completely NI to be an union of principal minors.
   An example could be:
   Traditions:
   • +10% Inf CA (from Milan)
   • +25% Better relation over the time (from Savoy)
   1st idea:
   • -10% Stability cost (from Genoa and Venice)
   2nd idea:
   • +10% Global Trade Power (from Venice)
   • +10% Trade Efficiency (from Genoa, Venice and Florence)
   3dr idea:
   • -20% Naval Maintenance (from Venice)
   • +20% Galley combat ability (from Venice,nerfed)
   4th idea:
   • +10% Production (from Florence/Tuscany)
   5th idea:
   • +25% Manpower (from Milan and Florence/Tuscany)
   6th idea:
   • +1 Prestige (from Florence/Tuscany)
   7th idea:
   • -15% Coring cost (from actual Italy,nerfed, to help the unification of Italian region)
   Ambition:
   • +5% Discipline (from Florence/Tuscany)

 

[Dnote]

MP Italy is weak because Naples is under PU with Aragon, Catholic larger nations tend to help the Papal State a little, Austria or Emperor gets mission to keep Northern Italy in HRE, France gets claims on Southern Italy, all the provinces are well developed and finally, no one likes Venice.

Germany would suffer a similar fate if it wasn't for the HRE, minors just won't survive in MP without a big ally protecting them.

 

[B92FS]

Do You tell me that actually military bonus (+15% inf CA) is sufficient to combat with other powers in MP? Is the problem that Italy have difficult to conquest all provinces of Italian Region?

 

[Zak Preston]

Yes, minors in EU4 MP have to rely on major power's help. The problem is that some minors like Brandenburg become self-sustaining once he becomes a major power too. There aren't that many playable minors in competitive MP, BTW. For example Brandenburg: has top-1 NIs and in most cases allies with Poland (top-2 NIs). This duo has a lot of potential, while Florence\Milan\Papacy + Austria is much and much weaker in terms of NIs and starting position.

Let's assume that Florence was lucky enough to assemble most of Italy and has 750 development. Will it be able to withstand equally developed France that has roughly the same ideas? I highly doubt, because when I played as Venice into Italy MP campaign, France had been able to crush my forces even attacking mountains.

 

[B92FS]

The best way to solve this problema is make a new topic in sugestion section: if developers think that Zak is right they can modify the game

 

[kakatua]

I dont know why people who never had played a single MP game or even looked to one of many MP threads this forum like to talk so much about how MP works.
Note: MP with 2 friends, a monkey and a dog doesnt count.

I will talk just about Italian Ideas. I dont care about the minors, as they are...minors.

First of all, despite Italian flag in this game be the one from Napoleon times, its ideas are based around being a new Roman Empire(Heir of the Empire, Tradition of Legion, Mare Nostrum...) and Rome was known, among other things, for his DISCIPLINED ARMY. For fight hordes of barbarians and stand still as a smaller force. The "first" professional army in the world. Where is the discipline among it? Oh no, its ambition is the useless 20% fort defence. Really? Lets conquer, invade everyone and reconquer our "Mare" standing behind forts?

Italy region has normally 2 or even 3 players in count and it is hard to see Italy unified and formed because everyone wants to jump in, mainly France and Austria.
Even if after 150~200 years of endless warfare against the bigger nations of Europe you can gain the stupid 15% Infantry CA(Sweden has 20% as tradition) and 33% more manpower(which is nice, but keep reading). But as Tuscany I would NEVER form Italy because 5% disc beats 15% Inf anyday and 8% manpower is not enough as I will use just mercs anyway. I control Genoa and Venice, boys...

So one fight for 150~200 years against other equal minors, against France, Austria, maybe Ottos and Spain to finally gain...15% Inf CA. It is 5% more than Milan, worse than Tuscany, its worse than ENGLAND who in every single game has the biggest income in the all world(so can merc spam more than Italy) and hadnt to fight anything for it. So, it is nice to have some differentiation between nations and some difference between majors and minors and between majors themselves(like prussia being better than france, that is better than castille), but Italy is too bad to be even compared and gives no reward sentiment to form Italy. It is much worse than the worse major(Austria) and some minor like Cologne.

Finnaly my suggestion:
Put 5% discipline as ambition
Increase the bonus of Infantry to 20%

It still will be worse than France, Ottos(with Janissaries), Prussia and other guys, a bit better than Austria and be something more than a Russia in Italy with infinite mercs and golden forts.

 

[Pahvimato]

Before we see more military stuff in national ideas, whether in Italy or elsewhere, I'd like to see the already existing ones nerfed. I don't necessarily see it a problem that certain countries lack these, while I'd be very happy to see the abundance of discipline NI be either nerfed or outright removed. Otherwise you're going to have this exact same thread on some other area of the world after the Italian states get it.

 

[War_lord]

Giving every country +5% discipline is the exact same as giving every country no discipline modifier. Intensely bland. Fort defence actually makes perfect sense, warfare in Italy in this period was a siege heavy affair.

 

[Number 7]

New fort changes will make the alps rather strategic too. France, Austria etc are going to be trying to siege mountain forts where they are taking the negative terrain modifier rather than the other way around. Might be a nice small buff for Italy (and for others that can use natural barriers defensively too)

 

[Zak Preston]

Giving every country +5% discipline is the exact same as giving every country no discipline modifier. Intensely bland. Fort defence actually makes perfect sense, warfare in Italy in this period was a siege heavy affair.

Basically giving a nation only one military bonus when all around have 2-4 is like gimping that nation.

New fort changes will make the alps rather strategic too. France, Austria etc are going to be trying to siege mountain forts where they are taking the negative terrain modifier rather than the other way around. Might be a nice small buff for Italy (and for others that can use natural barriers defensively too)

New fort defence system is like a double-edged sword: France will now have rush for Savoy to get Genoa asap. What chances will Italian player have while sieging French forts in Alps with -3 penalty?

 

[Dnote]

Basically giving a nation only one military bonus when all around have 2-4 is like gimping that nation.

New fort defence system is like a double-edged sword: France will now have rush for Savoy to get Genoa asap. What chances will Italian player have while sieging French forts in Alps with -3 penalty?

Okay, so let's say that PDS gives some of the Italian minors stormtroopers, what does this actually change?

Nothing, because the major powers are still going to want Italian land for themselves and you'll still be wiped out.

 

[Zak Preston]

Okay, so let's say that PDS gives some of the Italian minors stormtroopers, what does this actually change?
Nothing, because the major powers are still going to want Italian land for themselves and you'll still be wiped out.

It would give Italian minors or formed Italy better chances against surrounding supermajors and much more independence in foreign affairs.

 

[Mortheim]

It would give Italian minors or formed Italy better chances against surrounding supermajors and much more independence in foreign affairs.

Well, the main problem is - whole Northern Italy was under other nations control during EU4 time period. Same goes for Sicily and South Italy. And, well, Papal States escaped that fate because it was, well, papacy :3 And, historically, Italy was created (during EU4 time period) by Napoleon.

Why should it have better chance to appear? Only to give boost for MP? But why? It was a lot of small warmargering states with their own politics and ambitions,also - greedy and mighty neighbours. Let it be like it is. I don't think that EU4 will have good balance any time soon. There were no balance in history - only deals.