Italian minors need better military national ideas

[Zak Preston]

In most MP campaigns I've played Italy is a highly contested region with highly-developed provinces and precious trade endnodes. Apart from Italian minors, four superpowers would gladly grab those lands to themselves:

• Ottomans: +5% Discipline and godlike troops until Mil-15 tech, +10% inf CA and +5% additiona Discipline from Janissaries, +10% Land Morale (from Sunni piety)
• Austria: +10% Land Morale and +3% Discipline
• Castile: +15% Land Morale and +5% Discipline
• France: +20% Land Morale and +5% Discipline, also early Absolute monarchy adds 5% Discipline.

Austria, Castile and France can convert themselves to Protestant to get instant +2.5% Discipline and +5% Land and Naval Morale.
France and Castile generally want trade centres of Genoa node at very least, while Ottomans and Austria would gladly get Venetian trade node. The problem is that none of Italian minors has good enough ideas to effectively fight against listed above quadro:

• Papacy: +5% Discipline from NI's and +5% Disc from Vatican Library event. The best candidate to assemble Italy: easy access to HRE, a very strong start with Excommunication CB, lots of prestige from government form. Downsides are also significant: can't convert to protestantism (-2.5 disc and -5% Morale) also has to suffer from Reformation a lot. Can't get Absolute monarchy, meaning another -5% discipline comparing to other neighbours.
• Florence: +5% discipline.
• Milan: +10% Infantry CA and +5% Land Morale from Ambrosian Republic
• Savoy: nothing
• Venice: nothing
• Italy (formable): +15% Inf CA

Someone may reply that MP-scenarios in EU4 are heavily related on diplomacy or modifiers like high prestige and power projection. That's true, but none likes to carry weaker allies all the way through. Also players are much smarter than AI, therefore they pay attention to their AT, PP and prestige. Believe me, it's extremely frustrating to lose wars not because of tactical failures, miscommunication or even RNG, but because of trashy armies.

Spoiler: Stories from my own experience

Scenario1: Venice into Italy + Ottomans vs France + Spain + Portugal (also Austria). We had a war that lasted around 60-70 years. Venice has trashy armies compared to Spanish, French Turkish. At the end Ottoman got tired of carrying almost useless Italy.
Scenario2: Papacy + Burgundy vs France and Spain: Papacy got wrecked because of low morale compared to French Elan + absolute monarchy. 132.5% discipline after finishing 3 idea groups and getting Absolute Monarchy at 14 Adm tech plus 25% land morale is devastating. By that time Papacy had 130% discipline and no other boosts. Most battles had been lost due to significantly lower morale.
Scenario3: As Florence that has assembled most of Italy in 1550-1570 I had to deal with huge Ottomans that had decided to steal Venice from Austria. The huge war that has involved almost half of Europe has showed how valuable those +10%/15%/20% morale or extra 5% discipline modifiers are. So basically Florence had been a financial donor and played supportive role (siege forts, reinforce in battles and so on).

If you look at European majors NIs like Sweden, Poland, Brandenburg, Burgundy and many others, you will notice that most of them have at least 2 - 3 separate military bonuses in their NI's. England and Portugal are two quite different cases because of their secluded geographical position.

IMO formable Italy and some Italian minors should get second quality-related military bonuses:

• Italy: +5% Discipline to existing +15% Inf CA bonus would fit perfectly.
• Papal States: +10% Land Morale would fit extremely well on top of their +10% total Discipline Bonus (which kinda fades away with Reformation and Absolutism). Also Catholicism sucks in EU4 MP-environment.
• Florence: +10% Land Morale would give and awesome boost to an Italian Democracy.
• Milan: Well, +5% Discipline and +15%(10% base + 5% bonus) Inf CA would be sufficient.
• Venice, Savoy and other Italian nations should try to form Italy to get better NIs.

Conclusion: Proposed changes should help Italian players to secure their region and be more competitive in terms of troop's quality. Italy (formable), Florence, Papacy and Milan lack in army quality and aren't quite competitive with their neighbours (France, Ottomans, Spain, Austria).

 

[Gens]

The military ideas are not based just in game balance it is an image of the country history. Italian minors do not have a history of war, they were just the field in which the big nations clashed. It does not make sense to give them military ideas. That's my opinion.

 

[ecrurudesby]

Played a Milan game earlier this year and didn't struggle for a strong army. My development was so absurdly high and my mercs were so cheap that I punched well above my size.

 

[Zak Preston]

The military ideas are not based just in game balance it is an image of the country history. Italian minors do not have a history of war, they were just the field in which the big nations clashed. It does not make sense to give them military ideas. That's my opinion.

Italian mercenaries were as highly demanded as German or Swiss ones. Also EU4 has tons of historical compromises to make gameplay better.

Played a Milan game earlier this year and didn't struggle for a strong army. My development was so absurdly high and my mercs were so cheap that I punched well above my size.

It also depends on skill of your neighbours: a skilled player on France will have way over 550 development in 30 years after game start just by consuming surrounding AIs. You won't be able to do that simply because of huge AE in HRE.

 

[ecrurudesby]

It also depends on skill of your neighbours: a skilled player on France will have way over 550 development in 30 years after game start just by consuming surrounding AIs. You won't be able to do that simply because of huge AE in HRE.

Apologies I forgot to mention my Milan game was single player so I don't really have an opinion on MP balance.

 

[War_lord]

I don't want this game to be balanced around multiplayer, I'm sure you can find a mod that does what you want. I don't want bland homogenized idea groups in the main game.

 

[Zak Preston]

I don't want this game to be balanced around multiplayer, I'm sure you can find a mod that does what you want. I don't want bland homogenized idea groups in the main game.

MP in Paradoxian games becomes more and more popular: EU4. Stellaris, HOI4 and you can't ignore it completely.

 

[hashinshin]

The trick has always been (in vanilla) to form tuscany for the crazy money making and 5% discipline.

Italy is so goddamn rich that owning most of it and having +5% discipline is generally enough to even punch out France.

Milan starts with 10% infantry combat, a core in venice, great land, great development. You won't 1v1 any major (duh) but if you can get down to florence and form tuscany you'll pretty much be golden.

Then of course you have the Pope. Great army quality + great monarch point conversation + unlimited money. Until absolute monarchies he'll beast all of europe

 

[War_lord]

MP in Paradoxian games becomes more and more popular: EU4. Stellaris, HOI4 and you can't ignore it completely.

MP in the Super Smash Brothers games is also very popular, that doesn't mean the whole game is balanced around No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination.

 

[Zak Preston]

MP in the Super Smash Brothers games is also very popular, that doesn't mean the whole game is balanced around No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination.

If you personally don't like MP it doesn't mean it should be completely ignored by devs. Please be constructive

The trick has always been (in vanilla) to form tuscany for the crazy money making and 5% discipline.

Italy is so goddamn rich that owning most of it and having +5% discipline is generally enough to even punch out France.

Milan starts with 10% infantry combat, a core in venice, great land, great development. You won't 1v1 any major (duh) but if you can get down to florence and form tuscany you'll pretty much be golden.

Then of course you have the Pope. Great army quality + great monarch point conversation + unlimited money. Until absolute monarchies he'll beast all of europe

This! Is! Brilliant!!!! The only downside is that Tuscan army quality is not that great, because +5% Discipline is not enough to compete with far superior neighbours NIs.

 

[War_lord]

It's nothing do with not liking MP, that's a strawman. Absolute balance is absolutely boring. Historically the Italian minors were militarily no match for the Hapsburg and
de Valois armies, with the result that by the end of the 1550's the entire region was either controlled directly by the Hapsburgs, or in their Sphere of influence. History is not "balanced". EU4 is not "balanced", it doesn't need to be "balanced". History isn't "fair". Your complaint is that Italian minors in 1500 can't stand up to Castille, Austria, the Ottomans and France? Guess what, that's exactly what went down historically.

 

[bbqftw]

I'm not trying to be rude here, but isn't this much easier solved by playing either fixed point custom nation games, or running your own MP balance mod?

 

[Incompetent]

Italian minors do not have a history of war

...

I have to agree with the OP that Italian minors need better military ideas, but more for historical flavour than MP balance (because let's be realistic, AI minors are going to die regardless of military strength if there are several hungry players eyeing them up, and a game with human Italian minors is never going to be fair if other players are loading up as France or Ottomans). In per capita terms, the small Italian city-states were, by necessity, *much* more militarised than the likes of France, Spain or Austria, and should be able to punch above their weight accordingly. They don't need so many economic NIs, because their high development and optimal trade location already make them rich enough.

 

[Number 7]

Italy itself is one of the best military countries in the game due to the infantry combat ability and reduced coring cost. i think it used to be even better, i vaguely remember it being 20% in the past but i might be wrong, its been so long since i looked at italy.

15% combat ability can be thought of as 7.5% discipline for your most numerous and important unit, which is a pretty big buff.

 

[hashinshin]

Italy itself is one of the best military countries in the game due to the infantry combat ability and reduced coring cost. i think it used to be even better, i vaguely remember it being 20% in the past but i might be wrong, its been so long since i looked at italy.

15% combat ability can be thought of as 7.5% discipline for your most numerous and important unit, which is a pretty big buff.

I seriously suggest you look in to the game mechanics if you think that's true.

First off your claim that Italy has the strongest military because they have 15% infantry combat? Tuscany with 5% discipline alone is stronger than 15% infantry combat. 5% discipline in your NIs makes you "playable." It's basically what you need to even be taken seriously in multiplayer. Anything below that is a joke (portugal.)

Second off how many countries have infantry combat AND discipline? Japan, Prussia, Sweden, Songhai, Vijianegar, Ottomans, Poland. 7 off the top of my head, many of whom have other MASSIVE bonuses that would put them far ahead. And that's excluding France, Burgundy, Castile, etc. countries that have moral+discipline.

How many countries are in EU4 that I can already think of 10 off the top of my head that are WILDLY superior to Italian ideas? And that's the point of this thread. Italy (with Tuscan ideas) can typically contend with France/Castile/Austria/etc. simply because they can merc spam so damned hard they'll make up for the lack of morale. Against hard hitting NIs though they'd just DOOMED. There is no way in hell for a mere 5% discipline to stop Prussia. You can merc spam him in to the dirt obviously, but in Vanilla money becomes limitless to everyone at a certain point.

Also to the people saying "well multiplayer shouldn't be balanced!" ... well duh it's EU4. However what we're seeing here is alternate reality. Did Prussia form Germany in this time line? Did France take over Iberia? Did the Ottomans capture Wien? No. So why in this reality does a united Italy STILL have a very weak army? It's not even about multiplayer versus not-multiplayer balance at that point.

Worth noting is that in my MP mod I did buff Italy ideas because it was a significant MP sink to have to form Tuscany every time. However, I've never not seen Italy be a world power if they're formed. 100% of the times a united Italy either under Milan/Florence/Pope is a serious world power until the late game when money starts to become less meaningful and NIs/development are all that matters.

 

[War_lord]

...

I have to agree with the OP that Italian minors need better military ideas, but more for historical flavour than MP balance (because let's be realistic, AI minors are going to die regardless of military strength if there are several hungry players eyeing them up). In per capita terms, the small Italian city-states were, by necessity, *much* more militarised than the likes of France, Spain or Austria, and should be able to punch above their weight accordingly. They don't need so many economic NIs, because their high development and optimal trade location already make them rich enough.

The people doing the actual fighting in the wars between the Italian states were mercenary companies, who actually had very little interest in actually winning wars, because they were depending on a constant state of conflict in Italy for profit. Their antiquated tactics proved to be no match for the advanced armies of the likes of France.

 

[Number 7]

I seriously suggest you look in to the game mechanics if you think that's true.

First off your claim that Italy has the strongest military because they have 15% infantry combat? Tuscany with 5% discipline alone is stronger than 15% infantry combat. 5% discipline in your NIs makes you "playable." It's basically what you need to even be taken seriously in multiplayer. Anything below that is a joke (portugal.)

Second off how many countries have infantry combat AND discipline? Japan, Prussia, Sweden, Songhai, Vijianegar, Ottomans, Poland. 7 off the top of my head, many of whom have other MASSIVE bonuses that would put them far ahead. And that's excluding France, Burgundy, Castile, etc. countries that have moral+discipline.

How many countries are in EU4 that I can already think of 10 off the top of my head that are WILDLY superior to Italian ideas? And that's the point of this thread. Italy (with Tuscan ideas) can typically contend with France/Castile/Austria/etc. simply because they can merc spam so damned hard they'll make up for the lack of morale. Against hard hitting NIs though they'd just DOOMED. There is no way in hell for a mere 5% discipline to stop Prussia. You can merc spam him in to the dirt obviously, but in Vanilla money becomes limitless to everyone at a certain point.

Also to the people saying "well multiplayer shouldn't be balanced!" ... well duh it's EU4. However what we're seeing here is alternate reality. Did Prussia form Germany in this time line? Did France take over Iberia? Did the Ottomans capture Wien? No. So why in this reality does a united Italy STILL have a very weak army? It's not even about multiplayer versus not-multiplayer balance at that point.

Worth noting is that in my MP mod I did buff Italy ideas because it was a significant MP sink to have to form Tuscany every time. However, I've never not seen Italy be a world power if they're formed. 100% of the times a united Italy either under Milan/Florence/Pope is a serious world power until the late game when money starts to become less meaningful and NIs/development are all that matters.

Never claimed Italy was the strongest. claimed it was one of the strongest. please get better reading comprehension. it can compete with a lot of the good ones, its not Prussia, but Prussia is a lot harder to form because nobody in MP wants prussia forming with its billion military modifiers and will try to kill them early

 

[hashinshin]

Never claimed Italy was the strongest. claimed it was one of the strongest. please get better reading comprehension. it can compete with a lot of the good ones, its not Prussia, but Prussia is a lot harder to form because nobody in MP wants prussia forming with its billion military modifiers and will try to kill them early

Which good ones? 15% infantry combat is decidedly weaker than 5% discipline.

So that's like half the damn game right there that it's weaker than.

Now you're trying to insult me because you made a stupid statement?

 

[__AJAX__]

I think that 5% discipline aren't that important in mp. The real killers are usually big morale advantages, general pips and superior numbers. Even in late game 5% discipline aren't that important for an italian powerhouse as those battles drag on for months and you can allways throw in more merc infantry to offset the little kill/death difference. Don't forget the a united Italy is much richer then France or Austria and that the Pope can surpass both of them in army size and income by 1500 if Austria lets him into HRE. I think many players in MP make the mistake to not follow a quantity build as any italian nation. And quantity is pretty superior if you can afford to use those 50% extra force limit and micro your armies well.

 

[Zak Preston]

It's nothing do with not liking MP, that's a strawman. Absolute balance is absolutely boring. Historically the Italian minors were militarily no match for the Hapsburg and
de Valois armies, with the result that by the end of the 1550's the entire region was either controlled directly by the Hapsburgs, or in their Sphere of influence. History is not "balanced". EU4 is not "balanced", it doesn't need to be "balanced". History isn't "fair". Your complaint is that Italian minors in 1500 can't stand up to Castille, Austria, the Ottomans and France? Guess what, that's exactly what went down historically.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but isn't this much easier solved by playing either fixed point custom nation games, or running your own MP balance mod?

Historically Muscovy => Russia has never been a cannon fodder like it's depicted in EU4 in according timeline. Historically Spain has been a decent match for France. Historically Brittany, Ireland and Sctotland were in Celtic cultural group and Ottomans/Turks are not in Arabic one. There are lots of compromizes in EU4 and I fail to see how buffing a couple of Italian minors would hurt the game.

Italy itself is one of the best military countries in the game due to the infantry combat ability and reduced coring cost. i think it used to be even better, i vaguely remember it being 20% in the past but i might be wrong, its been so long since i looked at italy.

15% combat ability can be thought of as 7.5% discipline for your most numerous and important unit, which is a pretty big buff.

Coring cost has little to no use when you are landlocked between superpowers. Yes, it's helpful for Ottomans, Muscovy, Manchu who usually have plenty of AI to expand even in MP.
15% Inf CA is roughly equal to 5.5-6 discipline in total until ~14-15 Mil tech. But as time goes discipline becomes more valuable due to tactics bonus and abundance of Quality + Innovative combos (+30% Inf CA in total).

I think that 5% discipline aren't that important in mp. The real killers are usually big morale advantages, general pips and superior numbers. Even in late game 5% discipline aren't that important for an italian powerhouse as those battles drag on for months and you can allways throw in more merc infantry to offset the little kill/death difference. Don't forget the a united Italy is much richer then France or Austria and that the Pope can surpass both of them in army size and income by 1500 if Austria lets him into HRE. I think many players in MP make the mistake to not follow a quantity build as any italian nation. And quantity is pretty superior if you can afford to use those 50% extra force limit and micro your armies well.

5% displine in MP is actually gamechanging due to sophisticated combat mechanics. Morale plays decisive role until MIL-15, slowly shifting to Discipline later on. Once France gets it's Absolute monarchy at ADM-14, it may consider it's troops the best in the world (quality + economic + offensive gives 132.5% Discipline and +20% Morale in total or quality + religious + quantity that gives 122.5% Discipline and +40% Morale).
In competitive MP environment where most players are considered more or less equally skilled it's impossible for Italian player to surpass France in development without any PvP. AE hits extremely hard in early stages and French base development is around 350, while Italian is 50-90. So once French player gets what he wants in French region, he usually starts at looking at Italian Genoa.