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redawn said:
I agree with you there. We should have left you Albania, Greece, Ethiopia and Libya. If you look what's happened to these countries since, the fight for them wasn't worth a single British life or gold sovereign. When I play Italy, my usual desire is to join the Allies but unfortunately the UK usually refuses ...

Andrew


The British have enslaved one third of the World, and you speak of lives spent to free someone? No soldiers die to free anybody, they always die for their country; and no country does war to make anybody free, they only do war for their own interests.
The Italians were the ‘liberators’ of Abissinia, the Americans the ‘liberators’ of Europe, and now we are the ‘liberators’ of Iraq! Just propaganda.
Wait a moment before charging me with heresy.
The Abissinia was an invasion, the Europe was... Well, with WWI, USA had the occasion to become a major power, so it joined the war, and grew rich by renting to its allies money, troops and materials. After the war, Europe was devasted by inflaction to pay these debts, but our brave liberators didn’t care of that. And with WWII they saw the opportunity to become the first power in the World, and they didn’t lose such an occasion. In the truth, WWI and WWII were overall a single european civil war. By the end there was a major winner, the USA; a few minor winners, like USSR, China, Canada, Australia; a couple of losers, Europe and Japan; and a lot of major losers, the unlucky inhabitants of the former colonies, who were abandoned to their doom. You’ll say that Germans were brutal, that we needed to be saved from them. May be that’s truth, but the Soviets were equally brutal: didn’t merit the Soviet people to be liberated as well? Why to choose the Soviet side rather than the German side? Because the best profit was into baring down Europe, that was rich, not into bearing down USSR, that was poor. No, Europe had not been helped, it had just been destroyed, invaded, and then rebuilded; with this process, our money passed in american hands. Only this was our liberation: an horrendous, macabre bargain.
And about Iraq, we are there for oil and security, not certainly to free a people.
But I agree with you, the war between Italy and UK was a mistake for both. Mussolini didn’t wish at all to be allied with Germany, but he felt forced to by the hostility of Chamberlain before, and of Churchill then.
Unfortunately, europeans were not able to see the sad fate that expected all of them in the end of such an escalation of war. And this is because they didn’t understand that their were fighting a fratricide clash, blinded by the decrepit dreams of a past era of national dominations.
War is a crude matter, so crude that we humans need to find a superior justification for it, to be convinced that blood has really good a reason to be spread. And in thousands of years of wars, we have learnt really well this art. The winners are always the good, the generous, the right; the losers were always so baddy, as not to merit to live. Isn’t it? But try to read history imaginating the reasons of the losers –I say the soldiers, the peoples (for no book will tell you their true ones)– because they too fought a war, and they too must have had some faith and beliefs to do that, and they too were humans just like the winners. You will then guess that reasons were the same on both sides: country for the combatants, profit for the nations. Injustice and violence are never on a single side, thus you should not use them to condemn your enemy: the right side is but, and always, the side of your country.
Sorry to have broken the dreams of glory and heroism of someone.

And forward with the European Union!
 

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Hurin said:
Mussolini didn’t wish at all to be allied with Germany, but he felt forced to by the hostility of Chamberlain before, and of Churchill then.
Diplomatically, Italy wavered between Germany and the Allies. It cast its lot in with Germany after Paris fell - scrambling to get a share of the spoils from the expected peace settlement. When Italy discovered its mistake and found that it was, in fact, on the losing side of a long war, it soon discarded the discredited Duce and then collapsed into chaos.

Andrew
 

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Cunneda said:
It is simply historic fact not tales from my grandfathers who were nowhere near the Western desert.

Here are some facts:

38 000 Italians surrendered at Sidi Barrani after the attack 9 Dec 40

6 Infantry battalions ie less than 5000 men assualted Bardia 3 Jan 41
Result:
40 000 captured Italians
Assualting infantry: 130 dead (includes died of wounds)

Tobruk attacked 21 Jan 41
Result:
25 000 captured Italians
Assualting infantry: 49 dead (includes died of wounds)

20 000 Italians surrendered at the road block at Beda Fromm early Feb 41

Now any fair minded interpretation of these numbers would lead to the conclusion that large numbers of the Italians in the Libyan army in 40-41 did not want to fight.

And why the hell should they want to fight the British? I firmly believe that only committed fascists would embark upon such endevours and the behavior of the Italians is perfectly consistent with this thesis.
Another interesting fact is that by the end of the North African campaign, the ratio of prisoners to wounded/dead was three to one for both the German and Italian forces in North Africa.

So you judge the Italians based on a few selected battles, what about all the fighting in the rest of the North African campaign? Would it be reasonable if someone judged the British and Commonwealth forces performance in WW2 based on the Malaya/Singapore campaign?
 

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PaxMondo said:
Hurin; great stuff here. really. I hope you don't mind, but i am going to post this to the CORE team for future events. Yes, several of these are exactly what i think we need.

Focusing on the political decision issues like Leggi Razziali, this is where i think we need more. Especially from the pre-war years '36 - '40, where we can craft events that will help determine Italy's:

a. movement externally [who the will ally with, if anyone]
b. movement internally [W/E, dissent, CG requirements]

Not only for hte AI, but also to allow players to craft there own Italy future ...

THANKS!

Hopefully someone else will help, by now I'd need to study the argument... :eek:o
What about events moving the frog-men incursions (here I'm also repeating the question from Div.Cor.Ariete...)?
 

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redawn said:
Diplomatically, Italy wavered between Germany and the Allies. It cast its lot in with Germany after Paris fell - scrambling to get a share of the spoils from the expected peace settlement. When Italy discovered its mistake and found that it was, in fact, on the losing side of a long war, it soon discarded the discredited Duce and then collapsed into chaos.

Andrew


This is partially true. UK strongly opposed the italian invasion of Abissinia, and France, despite having initially given assent to Mussolini, soon changed opinion and joined the UK position. Not to speak about the economical sanctions inflicted by Society of the Nations (? In italian, Società delle Nazioni) to Italy. Mussolini, left alone, signed thus the Tripartite Agreement (Patto Tripartito, or Patto d’Acciaio) on May 11th, 1939, with Germany and Japan. From that point onwards, Italy was part of Axis: not declaring war to the enemies of Germany meant a betrayal. Despite this, he waited many months before respecting the terms of the Tripartite Agreement when WWII started. His only real option was to keep insisting with Germany to stay neutral: he could not join the Allies. But, yes, he declared war when he felt sure he could gain something not risking a military defeat.
 

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PaxMondo said:
Stupidity, or lack of conviction in the cause ... I've often wondered about this. Nothing i have read suggests that the Italian generals were stupid, several of them proved to be quite capable in a number of engagements. But that particular loss, which is so often waved in the face of Italians, how exactly [from the Italian historical perspective] did it ocurr?

looking forward to reaading your reply ....


This argument interests much me, because it has still really misterious aspects. A strategical plan to invade Egypt had been prepared one or two years before, and was apparently well made. But in the same moment as Mussolini ordered the offensive in North Africa, Balbo, the cleaver and charismatic leader of Italian Lybia, was shot down by his own anti-aircraft batteries :( , and Graziani took command.
This Graziani was a controverse figure already at his times. Apparently he was aggressive and cruel, but in the facts he moved with excessive caution and fear. In a few words, he had not the hearth to proceed with the offensive, and he delayed it the more he could. When he finally attacked, in September, he ordered to stop after just 90 Km of march, despite not great opposition appeared to be met on the road to Alexandria... But he assumed to face some 200,000 enemies, when there was no evidence of such an army!
It must be said, in his defence, that no kind of help was sent to him, except for a battalion of obsolete and fragile tanks (M.11/39); that he had little motorization to adventure in the desert, and even less anti-tank weapons and air support, just to quote part of the deficiences of his army; and that, with the disastrous campaign of Greece, the best equipments and supplies were suddendly turned there, rather than sent to support him. On the other hand, he had a huge army, even if poorly suited, and he could have used it better. For istance, he could have collected alltogether his motorization to move but a good corps across the desert, rather than moving a mass of unsupplied infantry in the sands.
Second error. When the British counterattacked, the italian divisions were deployed too far from each other, in a large area; they were not defended by mine fields, due to lack of mines, but not even by antitank trenches, due to noncurance. It was easy for the attacking armoured units to destroy them one by one, separately, for they were unable to support to each other.
The British overrunned the Italians, making thousands and thousands of prisoners, suffering but little losses. Why? Well, I think that the main reason was the chaos. The british tanks were invulnerable to our weapons, even artillery could do nothing against them. There weren’t any reinforcements available – too far and slow. The troops simply broke in front of them, just like the roman legions did with the elephants of Pyrrus, or the aztec warriors with the handful knights of Cortes. They felt impotent, and saw the lines collapsing under an invincible enemy. Once a rout starts, it is hard to stop it. A soldier can die, if he sees his comrades fighting; but if his officers don’t know what to do, and the line collapses, his courage ends.
Certainly, after such a disaster, and noticing that no reinforcements, no aviation, no navy came to help, and that the British and the Australians were well organized and supported, the morale of the italian army was gone. And this, in my eyes, is the real reason for the two successive and closely unbloody surrenders, Barrani and Tobruk.
No, I don’t believe at all that this humiliating defeat was caused by a general lacking of fighting temper from the italian people, nor by his dissent against fascism, or because they didn’t see a reason for a war against UK. For the simple reason that, from that moment onwards, the italian soldiers fought bravely on all front, and there wasn’t even the slightest episode of opposition to the war or to the fascism in the armed forces. This defeat was just a damned coctayl of political responsibilities, military impreparation, and lacking of means.
Anyway, it doesn’t seem to me that the last word upon this event, one of the most incredible of all WWII, had yet been written...

By the way, Cunneda, if you were a POW in Italy, and you were turned to work in a farm 10,000 Km away from your home across sea, and there was but a single girl there, ugly as you want, I’m sure you’d sexually harss her, soon or later... ;) So, imagine a male POW, being him italian, russian or chinese, working side by side with an as beautiful girl as you can find them in Australia! :D
About the policy chosen by the Australians with the POW, nothing strange. Germans and Italians are certainly different. The Germans are more disciplinated and martial, they might possibly organize a large scale revolt if left free here and there; Italians were certainly less dangerous under this point of view, and they were better farmers in general (that means, there existed more italian farmers among the POW, than german, for Germany had a higgest grade of industrialzation).
;)
 

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Hurin: very interesting ... i knew about Balbo death, but i had not connected the timing with the fiasco in Africa. Graziani was by accounts i have read quite political. Maybe he did not like being saddled with Balbo's plan? Interesting. I need to try to get some more background information on Graziani.

2nd point is even more interesting from this. In the HOI leaader pool, Graziani is far and away the best of Italy's leaders as he has both LW and OD, whereas Balbo is only a LW. the way you wrote, it would appear that Balbo needs to be improved relative to Graziani. Very interesting.

Thanks for taking the time.

[Lo so che e dificile scrivi in inglese, ma, e meglio che scrivi inglese perche puoi vedere come peggio scrivo italiano. mi dispiace! Ciao. ]
 

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spfisk said:
So you judge the Italians based on a few selected battles, what about all the fighting in the rest of the North African campaign? Would it be reasonable if someone judged the British and Commonwealth forces performance in WW2 based on the Malaya/Singapore campaign?

In a word no, not for the whole of the war. If you had posed the question

Would it be reasonable if someone judged the British and Commonwealth forces performance in the early part of WW2, ie 1939-1942, based on the Malaya/Singapore campaign?

The answer would have to be a resounding yes!

The consider the performance of the British and Empire Armies in the following campaigns:

Northern France (May-June 1940) - utter defeat
British Empire forces in Malaya (Dec 41- Feb 42) - utter defeat due to incompetence, too many bloody Indians, and only 2 Brigades of Australian Infantry
Greece (April 1941) - defeat of Australians and New Zealanders outnumbered 7 to 1
Crete (May 1941) - defeat due to cowardly NZ leadership, the absence of the will to fight
Rommels first offensive in North Africa (April - May 1941) - defeat/strategic running away.

These results are completely consistent to my mind. That is the Empires Armies were pretty bad, but at least they inflicted casualties on their enemies and took casualties themselves.

Cheers
 

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Hurin said:
By the way, Cunneda, if you were a POW in Italy, and you were turned to work in a farm 10,000 Km away from your home across sea, and there was but a single girl there, ugly as you want, I’m sure you’d sexually harss her, soon or later... ;) So, imagine a male POW, being him italian, russian or chinese, working side by side with an as beautiful girl as you can find them in Australia!

No way mate! we have better sexual politics. :D

I am Australian of purely British Protestant extraction. Remember the old saying ...

No sex thankyou, we are British! :rofl:

And by the way, not all Aussie shielas look like Megan Gale, Kylie Minogue, Naomi Watts or Nicole Kidman.

Vale.
 

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Cunneda said:
No way mate! we have better sexual politics. :D

I am Australian of purely British Protestant extraction. Remember the old saying ...

No sex thankyou, we are British! :rofl:

And by the way, not all Aussie shielas look like Megan Gale, Kylie Minogue, Naomi Watts or Nicole Kidman.

Vale.

Not to forget Elle 'The Body' McPherson... (yes, a few years ago may be)! Ah, the australian girls! ;)
 

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redawn said:
Here are some stats for 1938, compiled mostly by Angus Maddison and quoted in The Economics of World War II:
Code:
Country.........	Pop.	Area	GDP	GDP/head

USA.............	131	 7,856	800	6,134
UK..............	 48	   245	284	5,983
Denmark.........	  4	    43	 21	5,544
Germany.........	 69	   470	351	5,122
Netherlands.....	  9	    33	 45	5,122
Belgium.........	  8	    30	 40	4,730
France..........	 42	   551	186	4,419
Norway..........	  3	   323	 12	3,945
UK dominions....	 30	19,185	115	3,820
Austria.........	  7	    84	 24	3,559
Finland.........	  4	   383	 13	3,486
Italy...........	 43	   310	141	3,244
Czecho-Slovakia.	 11	   140	 30	2,886
Greece..........	  7	   130	 19	2,727
Hungary.........	  9	   117	 24	2,655
Japan...........	 72	   382	169	2,356
Poland..........	 35	   389	 77	2,182
Baltic States...	  6	   167	 13	2,150
USSR............	167	21,176	359	2,150
Bulgaria........	  7	   103	 11	1,595
US colonies.....	 16	   296	 24	1,497
Yugoslavia......	 16	   248	 22	1,360
Romania.........	 16	   295	 19	1,242
Nethlands colonies	 68	 1,904	 77	1,136
Japanese colonies	 60	 1,602	 63	1,052
Siam............	 15	   518	 13	  832
China...........	412	 9,800	321	  778
French colonies.	 71	12,099	 49	  684
UK colonies.....	454	14,994	285	  627
Italian colonies	  9	 3,488	  3	  306

Populations: millions
Area: thousands of square kilometres
GDP: billions of US$ at 1990 prices
GDP/head : US$ at 1990 prices
comma (,): thousands separator not decimal place.  All decimals rounded.
Andrew

Thankyou for providing such excellent statistics.

Playing around with these numbers it is perfectly clear that of the Western Powers it is the UK that this grossly under represented in IC.

In 1.05c normal level of difficulty the game allocates the following IC for the 39 scenario:

UK (home islands only) : 188
USA : 899
Soviet Union : 467
Germany (minus Czech annexation) : 374
France (metropolitan) : 162
Italy : 142

If you deliberately exclude the Empire which has a GDP equal to the Home Islands (285 vis 284) because a lot of this GDP (like China) is subsistence agriculture and hence not usable, you can get a fair comparison between the UK and other powers which are nation states (except for the Soviet Union which was part nation/part empire).

Now using the UK (home islands) as a base ie 48 million people with a per capita GDP of $5,983 then the real IC should be:

UK (home Islands only) : 188
USA : 543
Soviet Union : 235
Germany (minus Czech annexation) : 230
France (metropolitan) : 122
Italy : 91

In the game the UK gets an extra 102 IC from the Empire and its 454 million people. This may be too high considering China starts the 36 scenario with 86 IC. Adjusting for the Empire as modelled on China, the UK should get an extra 76 IC from the Empire not 102 IC. Thus there is a hidden transfer of 26 IC from the Empire to the UK.

Now allowing for this transfer the figures become:

UK (home Islands only) : 214
USA : 618
Soviet Union : 267
Germany (minus Czech annexation) : 262
France : 138
Italy : 104


So if any one country is being underrepresented in terms of IC it is clearly the UK and Not Italy.

Relative to each other the figures for the USA and Germany are about right ie 45% higher than the real figures for the UK.

France is only inflated by 1.17 compared to the UK.

The Soviet figures are bloated by a factor of 1.75. But any figures regarding the Soviet economy are probably suspect (because of the extensive use of slave labour etc.)

Now on this basis Italy is ripped of bacause its IC is only inflated by a mere 1.37 times instead of 1.45 for the USA, Germany.

So in fairness Italy needs another 9 IC and France needs an extra 38 IC to be 1.45 tougher than the historic UK.

It is no wonder that Americans playing this game get a severely distorted view of the importance of the USA and Germany in WW2.

It is a pity, but not surprising, that the game is so grossly baised to appeal to these markets.
 
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Hey the Australians stole our TV channel!

ABC is also an American channel. I think it means American Broadcasting Company, but I could be mistaken.
 

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Good work Cunneda.
I don't discuss your numbers. What I note is that Italy, since 1936, started strengthening its military units and armaments about at maximum its industrial strength; this effort was such, that even when finally at war, the increasing that could be obtained was really little a thing.
Nations like UK and USA, all the contrary, didn't produce much when at peace, but they started a mass production when at war. I have seen that HOI simulates well such a situation for USA, but it seems to me France and UK can produce too many military units already when at peacetime.
Thus, if Italy has right ICs if compared with other nations, then the problem must lay in the amount of consumer goods, too high for Italy and too low for UK and France.
In any case, something doesn't work in the balance, because Italy starts strong in 1936 (wrong, it was weak), but if peace lasts too much (for example, until 1939 :D ), Italy discovers UK and France having overheleming forces, while it couldn't even build the same units, and have the same technological level, as it has in the 1939 scenario.
 

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Hurin said:
Good work Cunneda.
I don't discuss your numbers. What I note is that Italy, since 1936, started strengthening its military units and armaments about at maximum its industrial strength; this effort was such, that even when finally at war, the increasing that could be obtained was really little a thing.
Nations like UK and USA, all the contrary, didn't produce much when at peace, but they started a mass production when at war. I have seen that HOI simulates well such a situation for USA, but it seems to me France and UK can produce too many military units already when at peacetime.
Thus, if Italy has right ICs if compared with other nations, then the problem must lay in the amount of consumer goods, too high for Italy and too low for UK and France.
In any case, something doesn't work in the balance, because Italy starts strong in 1936 (wrong, it was weak), but if peace lasts too much (for example, until 1939 :D ), Italy discovers UK and France having overheleming forces, while it couldn't even build the same units, and have the same technological level, as it has in the 1939 scenario.


Agree that Italy is much too strong in 1936. In fact Italy is much too strong at all times in HOI. Just no way to mod the Italian armed forces accurately in HOI. Italy could NEVER loose to Creece in HOI, or Yugo either. The CORE techs that weaken the army are a good start, but still the army is still too strong.
 
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But if the game weakened Italy any more, I think that Italy would be bitch slapped out of North Africa by September 3, 1939. Yes... thats right. Two days after the start of the war. Maybe Im exagerrating... but still. Id rather not have an historically accurate Italy that can fight and wont just crumple like a house of cards. Maybe thats just me.
 

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Hurin said:
Good work Cunneda.
I don't discuss your numbers. What I note is that Italy, since 1936, started strengthening its military units and armaments about at maximum its industrial strength; this effort was such, that even when finally at war, the increasing that could be obtained was really little a thing.
Nations like UK and USA, all the contrary, didn't produce much when at peace, but they started a mass production when at war. I have seen that HOI simulates well such a situation for USA, but it seems to me France and UK can produce too many military units already when at peacetime.
Thus, if Italy has right ICs if compared with other nations, then the problem must lay in the amount of consumer goods, too high for Italy and too low for UK and France.
In any case, something doesn't work in the balance, because Italy starts strong in 1936 (wrong, it was weak), but if peace lasts too much (for example, until 1939 :D ), Italy discovers UK and France having overheleming forces, while it couldn't even build the same units, and have the same technological level, as it has in the 1939 scenario.

Have a look at the CORE mod, where Britain is limited from building an ahistoric number of land units by severely limiting their manpower until the war breaks out.

HOI 1.05c it way out of line with its ratings of naval units eg the Conti di Cavour have a naval attack of 9 one piont more than an Brttish County class 8" cruiser. Also the naming of the British Battleship classes are wrong. For example the King George V class are called "Lion II" whilst the R class are called "King George V". Really!

If they got such elemetary and easily checkable facts wrong one questions if they got anything right, a bit like the user manual. That was the first thing I checked when I down loaded CORE was the battleship classes and statistics because I could check them against standard reference books that I own (like Jane's "Battleships of the 20th Century" etc.).

Anyway what do you think of the way Italy is modelled in CORE?
 
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A little more consideration would be nice

Cunneda, just a word of free advice.

You can say whatever you like about factual errors in HoI. There are plenty, I've pointed out literally hundreds of them. But I would prefer, and I am sure every other beta tester and helper and modder would prefer, if you not call someone a "cretin" for making such errors.

It is actually fairly easy for a file of battleship model names to get mixed up. The person who did it (and I have no idea who it was) may have been a naval history buff who got things out of order while typing, or he may have been a student with relatively little knowledge in the area, volunteering time to set up files based on someone else's notes. Both things happen every day working on HoI, and then ANOTHER volunteer eventually comes along and patiently fixes the problem.

You're going to get version 1.06 fairly soon (don't ask me for an exact date) and by my rough estimate it is going to be about 80 or 90 percent volunteer labor, including a fair amount of mine. I don't expect you to agree with all the judgment calls that are made in setting up the game and the rules, or to keep silent about mistakes -- but please keep in mind you're getting most of this stuff because of someone else's goodwill.