Italian events

[McNaughton]

I agree Italy should be able to claim Nice, Corsica and Tunisia, particularly if they do well (i.e. if they occupy Marseille?) in the war. Also, after the fall of Yugoslavia Italy annexed Slovenia and the Dalmatian coast.
There could be an option for Mussolini to get rid of the king, an idea he shortly played with after the victory in Ethiopia. But this would be a big "what if", as it would require a revised Italian collapse sequence. Also, if Italy chooses this path, it should get a big dissent hit.
If - when Italy enters the war on the Axis side, and if attacks Greece, it should be plagued with more dissent for failures in North Africa, Greece and Ethiopia (dissent grows if Italy does not control Tobruk, Athens and Addis Ababa).

More Italian events I'd like to see:
- Mussolini backs down in Ethiopia: Italy does not invade Ethiopia (in game terms they sign an immediate peace) and gets closer to France and GB, maybe in exchange for territories like Djibuti, Tunisia and - or Malta (an idea briefly considered by Italian and French diplomats in 1935)
- Italian troops use chemical weapons in Ethiopia: worsen relations with almost everyone but gives some sort of attack bonus (maybe supply, to put the Italian expeditionary corp in attack supply?).
- If British troops take Tobruk in 1940 - 1941, than Graziani (who, by the way, is highly overrated in game terms) is permanently removed.
- If Italian troops attack Greece and are repelled (i.e. they do not control any province in Greek mainland within a couple of months) Badoglio is permanently removed.

Ethiopia: AFAIK, Italy was beyond the line of no return, and pulling out would have been a major political defeat.

Chemical Weapons: Stuff like this isn't allowed under Paradox rules.

Tobruk: Problem, what if you have Graziani fighting in Yugoslavia when the British take Tobruk? That wouldn't be fair!

Greece: Badoglio was heavily upset on how the attack on Greece was launched. He thought that the planning was foolish and implementation bad (he said that attacking with less than 12 divisions was foolhearty, I beleive only 6 made the actual attack). The attack did fail, historically, and Badoglio did keep his job, historically.

 

[KingMississippi]

Tobruk: Problem, what if you have Graziani fighting in Yugoslavia when the British take Tobruk? That wouldn't be fair!

But an example of this is already in the game at this point. Look at the Blucher event for SU after the loss to Japan. I never place Blucher in the Far East but I still lose him when the event is fired.

 

[unmerged(21069)]

Graziani's career, however, did not end with Libya, but with the RSI, he even had a post-war political stint (after being released from Prison in 1955, he was a big draw speaker for the Movimento Sociale Italiano).

I will hold my tognue on the subject of chemical weapons as per forum rules.

In 1936, the physical invasion of Ethiopia was already under way, troops crossed into Ethiopia sometime during '35, if i recall correctly.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

I agree Italy should be able to claim Nice, Corsica and Tunisia, particularly if they do well (i.e. if they occupy Marseille?) in the war. Also, after the fall of Yugoslavia Italy annexed Slovenia and the Dalmatian coast.
There could be an option for Mussolini to get rid of the king, an idea he shortly played with after the victory in Ethiopia. But this would be a big "what if", as it would require a revised Italian collapse sequence. Also, if Italy chooses this path, it should get a big dissent hit.
If - when Italy enters the war on the Axis side, and if attacks Greece, it should be plagued with more dissent for failures in North Africa, Greece and Ethiopia (dissent grows if Italy does not control Tobruk, Athens and Addis Ababa).

More Italian events I'd like to see:
- Mussolini backs down in Ethiopia: Italy does not invade Ethiopia (in game terms they sign an immediate peace) and gets closer to France and GB, maybe in exchange for territories like Djibuti, Tunisia and - or Malta (an idea briefly considered by Italian and French diplomats in 1935)
- Italian troops use chemical weapons in Ethiopia: worsen relations with almost everyone but gives some sort of attack bonus (maybe supply, to put the Italian expeditionary corp in attack supply?).
- If British troops take Tobruk in 1940 - 1941, than Graziani (who, by the way, is highly overrated in game terms) is permanently removed.
- If Italian troops attack Greece and are repelled (i.e. they do not control any province in Greek mainland within a couple of months) Badoglio is permanently removed.

I agree with the first group of ideas, however I cannot see why Italy should take a huge hit dissent wise, most people were loyal to Mussolini and the Fascists and even more knew, and understood that Vittorio Emanuele was an incompetant 'stiff neck'. Considering that the Fascist never had real control of the army and that they still swore their oath of loyalty to the King, maybe the army can take a hit somehow???

The dissent penalties for loosing Greece/Ethoipia/Albania/Libya shouldn't be too large otherwise Italy will get even more steamrolled than it already does when things turn against them. However like in C.O.R.E. 1, Italy should get an IC and TC boost among other bonuses to prepare them for a homeland invasion.

 

[unmerged(40080)]

Italy Events?

LOL: Why not stage a race to see whether French or Italian troops can run the fastest in the face of determined opposition? Conquer half the world as Italy? Must have been some kind of dream-world where that happens. Has someone figured out a way to bring back some legions? Tag

 

[McNaughton]

LOL: Why not stage a race to see whether French or Italian troops can run the fastest in the face of determined opposition? Conquer half the world as Italy? Must have been some kind of dream-world where that happens. Has someone figured out a way to bring back some legions? Tag

Ah, a person who studies 'history lite', eh?

Realistically, Italians and French were known to be fierce opponents when given the proper opportunity. The fact that the soldiers fought so well given the poor equipment and leadership is a tribute to the soldiers. Imagine using a L.3/33 Tankette against a Matilda II tank? The Italians knew it was hopeless, yet fought on anyway. Same with the French. Any time that the engaged German forces they fought well. The problems were, lack of mobility, lack of appropriate doctrine, and lack of certain experience. Until just before WW2, the Italian army was trained and equipped to fight a war in Southern Europe. Suddenly, in 1938, the doctrine was changed, to fight a mobile war in North Africa. Troops weren't trained, and equipment was not deployed in sufficient numbers to support these new ideas.

In France, there was very little running. Many units were destroyed to the last man in major engagements. The problem was, many units were out-flanked, and were FORCED to withdraw, otherwize they would be surrounded and easily contained and destroyed.

The French performed no worse than the US army did when they were under attack in the same region. In many ways, the French in 1940 fought better than the Americans in 1944. German weakness in 1944 contributed as much to their failed attack as the Allies did.

So, before you go insulting the French, or Italians (my Grandfather fought in Ethiopia in 1941, he didn't run, and saw many of his friends killed in some bloody battles) please think.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Indeed, both my Grandfathers fought for the Italians in WWII. This thread was created so I, and other constructive people could put forward suggestions which could make playing Italy in C.O.R.E. 2 a much more enjoyable and realistic experiance.

 

[Iosoncoluicheé]

Apologies for breaking the Paradox Forum rules, I just assumed this was ok to discuss are it is portrayed in a different mod. My mistake.

- When I suggest Italy could have the option of coming to peace with Ethiopia, I meant we could simulate an entirely different course of events, where Mussolini does not attack Ethiopia in 1935.
- Graziani historically lost his job after the defeat in Libya. He was than reinstated by the RSI, which in game terms was a different state in CORE1. As someone said: he might be in a different thater at the moment,. but that is no different to the purge of Blucher in the USSR. Badoglio lost his job after Greece, and he was reinstated as a Prime Minister (so in a different job) after the demise of Mussolini.
- I think if you want to get rid of the king you must pay a price: he might not be hugely popular among die hard fascists, but he is still a potent symbol of the nation well liked by a part of the armed forces. This also makes for a more interesting option: if you have no malus for removing him, what is the point in introducing the event?
- I think you should simulate the loss of face, of internal cohesion, international prestige etc. brought by the first defeats and "punish" Italy in a way or another. This is particularly true for a human player (in core I some events were for humans only and did not apply to the AI, I think). I would also introduce a dissent penalty for the war in Ethiopia: if you do not control Addis Abeba by the end of 1936, the folks home begin to get nervous. Otherwise Italian troops and leaders can reap the benfits of war experience in Ethiopia for years. The early defeats were crucial: they undermined the confidence of many Italian officers, the navy became more and more reluctant to engage the enemies and anti - Mussolini feelings grew rapidly in the Army.
- I am not sure if Italy should receive any form of bonus when its territory is attacked. When that happened historically was there a significant mobilisation effort?

 

[unmerged(21069)]

alright, on the Graziani front my only point was that he remained on deck to serve Italy, and should probably not be taken out of the roster of generals (although, it does occur to me that maybe an event could lower his skill level to 0 or destroy Graziani A and replace him with Graziani B who has skill 0)



on a totally different note, it does occur to me that one of the effects of the Ethiopian war was to start the program that eventually created the Decima MAS. However, when it looked like the war in Ethiopia would not start a war in Europe the program was shut down for a year and a half or so until it was revived in 1938, conicidentally the delay is almost exactly the same as the delay between Italy's entry into WWII and the attack on Alexandria. Perhaps the Italians and the Brits ought to have some events to simulate the role of the frogmen, since the C.O.R.E. people were unwilling to make them attachments to some submarines in the same way that CAG are attachments to carriers.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Italians are already cursed with hopeless commanders.

I would like to say that I really don't think Badoglio should be an Old Guard, he should have offensive and defensive doctrine as he, for Italian standards, and innovative yet grounded general. Likewise Callovaro shouldn't be old Guard either, he was a great proponent of mobile warfare, offensive doctrine and logistics wizard maybe...

Lastly, Bastico (DEFINATLY) and Garaboldi shouldn't be old guard either, they weren't backward generals, and Bastico was acually an innovator who stayed of and helped build up Italy's post war army and he himself formulated a number of Italian doctrines.

 

[MateDow]

...Perhaps the Italians and the Brits ought to have some events to simulate the role of the frogmen, since the C.O.R.E. people were unwilling to make them attachments to some submarines in the same way that CAG are attachments to carriers.

It is difficult to recreate the activities of frogmen using events. It suffers from the same limitations as every Pearl Harbor event ever attempted. It is very difficult to write an event that does this.

Frogmen (and mini-subs) had very limited utilization and value during the war. I can think of two occasions where frogmen or mini-subs were used effectively; Alexandria and Trondhiem.

At Alexandria, Italian frogmen succeeded in damaging two British battleships. These ships settled to the bottom after limpit mines were detonated against their hulls.

At Trondhiem, the British managed to damage the Tirpitz after the loss or ineffectiveness of most of their subs.

These two operations were oddities of the war and probably weren't economical for the amount of effort expended to achieve the rather limited results.

If we were to add these as brigade attachments, they would be 100% at making their units more effective in all combat whether it occured at sea or as a part of a port attack. This would make them more effective than they were historically. This is why they aren't included as an option. This is in addition to the fact that there is no mechanism available for adding new brigade types which would be necessary. MDow

 

[unmerged(21069)]

It is difficult to recreate the activities of frogmen using events. It suffers from the same limitations as every Pearl Harbor event ever attempted. It is very difficult to write an event that does this.

Frogmen (and mini-subs) had very limited utilization and value during the war. I can think of two occasions where frogmen or mini-subs were used effectively; Alexandria and Trondhiem.

At Alexandria, Italian frogmen succeeded in damaging two British battleships. These ships settled to the bottom after limpit mines were detonated against their hulls.

At Trondhiem, the British managed to damage the Tirpitz after the loss or ineffectiveness of most of their subs.

These two operations were oddities of the war and probably weren't economical for the amount of effort expended to achieve the rather limited results.

If we were to add these as brigade attachments, they would be 100% at making their units more effective in all combat whether it occured at sea or as a part of a port attack. This would make them more effective than they were historically. This is why they aren't included as an option. This is in addition to the fact that there is no mechanism available for adding new brigade types which would be necessary. MDow

ummmmmm... 2 succesful attacks? are you aware that the Italians, with great difficulty obviously, set up a frogman base in a half sunken ship in the mouth of the gibraltar harbour that operated for years with some success? Are you also not aware of the succesuful Decima Mas attack on Malta's harbour which resulted in the sinking of a cruiser?

when i say put them in as a brigade i am really thinking that it could simply give the submarines (or perhaps a particular type of frogman carrying sub) the option of a port attack, they could have a zero attack value and simply add that option to a sub's normal capabilities

anyway, at a minimum, an event could: lower italian dissent, and/or lower British supply stocks. The British spent a fair amount of money building lavish defenses against frogman attacks. Also, as I already pointed out, the Italians suspended their program for two years (36-38), had they not they might well have been able to employ frogmen w/ great effectiveness early in the war, before several failed attacks tipped the Brits off to the Decima's existence. It would certainly be possible to mod in an event for the decision to keep or scrap the program (lower supplies, but raise the org on Italian subs or something).

 

[MateDow]

ummmmmm... 2 succesful attacks? are you aware that the Italians, with great difficulty obviously, set up a frogman base in a half sunken ship in the mouth of the gibraltar harbour that operated for years with some success? Are you also not aware of the succesuful Decima Mas attack on Malta's harbour which resulted in the sinking of a cruiser?

I am aware of the operations of the forces at Gibralter. I also seem to remember that the loss rate was 5 out of every 6 frogmen, and they only sank merchant vessels.

I am not aware of any cruisers sunk by frogmen, much less in Malta. I think that the HMS York was sunk by a motor boat filled with explosives. But that was off the coast of Crete (Suda Bay). Do you have any details on that attack?

when i say put them in as a brigade i am really thinking that it could simply give the submarines (or perhaps a particular type of frogman carrying sub) the option of a port attack, they could have a zero attack value and simply add that option to a sub's normal capabilities

I am not sure it could be done that way, and I would be hessitant to add it. If people think it is a good idea, we could do some research as to whether or not it is possible.

anyway, at a minimum, an event could: lower italian dissent, and/or lower British supply stocks. The British spent a fair amount of money building lavish defenses against frogman attacks. Also, as I already pointed out, the Italians suspended their program for two years (36-38), had they not they might well have been able to employ frogmen w/ great effectiveness early in the war, before several failed attacks tipped the Brits off to the Decima's existence. It would certainly be possible to mod in an event for the decision to keep or scrap the program (lower supplies, but raise the org on Italian subs or something).

The problem with raising the org of Italian subs is that will translate into better convoy and fleet attacks in the open ocean. Historically tasks where frogment weren't utilized. The only possibility would be the port attack option, but it would have to be extremely limited and expensive.

A general event would be tough. If we write an event which says "Italian frogmen have successfully made an attack against the British fleet in Alexandria..." there is no guarentee that the British will have a fleet in Alexandria, or that the Italians have a submarine available to deliver frogmen. These are very problimatic events to write. MDow

 

[unmerged(40080)]

Italians and French in WWII

The French fought like possessed men in WWI. No one can question thier courage and determination. The Romans were the best in the world during the prime of their empire. In WWII the Italians were a joke and the French lost thier entire proud country in 6 weeks!! I am sure you don't want a more detailed rundown of their sucess, or lack thereof. My father fought in N. Africa, Italy and Germany and was in the Battle of the Bulge. Our boys didn't run, check your "lite history." Perhaps they missed that fact in Italy.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

The problem with raising the org of Italian subs is that will translate into better convoy and fleet attacks in the open ocean. Historically tasks where frogment weren't utilized. The only possibility would be the port attack option, but it would have to be extremely limited and expensive.

Couldn't you make it so the Frogmen brigades my inhibit the range of sub, so this negates such an issue. Say, Froggies can move only 4 sea provinces or something like that.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

The French fought like possessed men in WWI. No one can question thier courage and determination. The Romans were the best in the world during the prime of their empire. In WWII the Italians were a joke and the French lost thier entire proud country in 6 weeks!! I am sure you don't want a more detailed rundown of their sucess, or lack thereof. My father fought in N. Africa, Italy and Germany and was in the Battle of the Bulge. Our boys didn't run, check your "lite history." Perhaps they missed that fact in Italy.

With the exeption of Germany (Yes this also includes Russia), the French and the Italians lost the greatest percentages of their military power due to acual losses? Meaning that so many French and Italian units found themselves encircled (As the previous post mentioned, lack of doctrine and indoctrination of officers ect, as well as incompetance of high commands) and without surrendering, fought to the death.

Like the Italian XX Corpo Armato which inlcuded the Ariete and Littorio armoured divisions in Al Alamein, they fought the poms to a standstill with death defying courage as the Birt counterattacked, they allowed themselves to be encircled and eliminated in their 'sardine tins' as often mocked by the Germans, but it was this heroic action which allowed the all the Rommel's German panzers (The whole of 22 Panzer II's & III's, 15th & 21st Panzer Divs) to escape as well as his 164th Division and Combat Group Kiel, the greater portion of the much vaunted Afrika Korps..


Now this ISN'T AN ITALIAN BASHING FOR FRENCH BASHING THREAD! Got it?

 

[MateDow]

Couldn't you make it so the Frogmen brigades my inhibit the range of sub, so this negates such an issue. Say, Froggies can move only 4 sea provinces or something like that.

We can't create new brigades. In order for this to happen we would need to eliminate an existing brigade. This would require us to eliminate armored cars, police, infantry tanks or one of the other combat arms brigades. For that reason alone, it isn't really feasible. Without the brigade mechanism, we either have to modify all Italian submarines regardless of whether there would be frogmen available. At the moment there is also a limitation that you can't change the combat stats of future units. You can change the stats on existing units, but for some reason it isn't applied to later units . MDow

 

[Brasidas]

MateDOW, I'm not sure I'd agree with the new brigade suggestion that was made, but there is at least one superfluous brigade type out there: light armour.

The light armour brigade could easily be the third entry in the armoured car series.

 

[baylox]

The light armour brigade could easily be the third entry in the armoured car series.

With the tech trees modded so much, this discussion is best held after we release. There may not be anything 'superfluous' anymore...

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Now back to the original point.

I dusted off the old HOI 1, I installed the 1.6c patch and my latest CORE mod, and now I have some suggestions and comparisons to make in light of my refreshed memory.

Now in the CORE mod, Italy lays claim to Tunisia (HOI Tunis and Gabes), Bastia (Corsica) and Malta as well as the dalmatian coast. So in CORE 2, these provinces should also be national provinces and thus claimable. After deliberation and consideration about my previous ideas, I have culminated them into one well thought out idea.

'Claim unredeemed Italy'.
This event should fire in the German invasion of France. It could occur at Vichy when the Germans overrun France as set up the puppet Regime under Petain.

#1 - If Germans choose to establish Vichy, and chooses to support Italian claim, Italy receives provinces IF Vichy complies. If Germany does not support and/or Vichy doesn't support claim, Italy can choose to back down, with a hefty dissent penalty and a temporary hit to army morale, or Italy can press claims without Vichy/German blessing and must take on Vichy without Axis support, weather it is or not apart of the Axis.

#2 - If Germany doesn't start WWII and/or Invade France proper, claim unredeemed Italy will fire two other ways, if Italy chooses to invade Yugoslavia prior, it will fire automatically on Jan 1 1940. France will 70% refute claim, this will go to 90% rebuff IF USA is a part of the Allies, and will lower to 64% if Italy is in Axis with Germany. If Yugo hasen't been taken over prior, Unredeemed italy will fire if either, Mussolini becomes foreign miniser or 1 Apr 1941 and war will be automatically declared on both France (allies) and Yugo (Who will consiquently join the allies).

#3 - Claim unredeemed italy can also fire even if both WWII (and subsiquent German invasion of France occurs) and the French choose to fight on (VIVE L'FRANCE!). When Germany defeats France in continental Europe, once the last homeland provinces has been occupied, the event will fire and it can be a little different "Italy takes its case to victorious Germany in Italy claims unredeemed Italy". Thus Neither the French nor Vichy effect the outcome, Germany alone will dictate the outcome.

This could culmiante into an interesting scenario, if Germany refuse, the Italians can push the claim, this could lead to a splintering of the Axis. If the Danubian pacts and Roman protocols are signed, Hungary and (if Austria exists) Austria will throw their lot with Italy (80-75% chance), if this occurs, they could even flip to the allies....