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amalric de g.

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Okay, that much I can agree with.

With tommylotto's quotations, and some reading I did on my own, it looks to me like Greece was doomed. The fought wonderfully, and I wouldn't impugn their honor or courage, but without UK/Commonwealth aid in substantial amounts, it was going to be a lost cause whether or not the Germans showed up.

By the way, what did Italy gain in economic terms from their occupation of Greece (and Albania, for that matter)? With no forthcoming invasion of Cyprus or the Suez from Greece or Crete, was there any real gain from taking Greece? Even if the Greeks folded in November of 1940, would adding Greece to the Italian Empire have actually helped, or created an occupation that would still have cost more than the benefits of annexation?

I would say nothing, except olive oil and cheese, the greeks fought with french and german artillery equipment and couldn´t even produce ammunition for the weapons.
And Italy had enough olive oil and cheese themselfs.
Mussolini wanted to conquer Albania and Greece, for his mare nostrum dream. If he had conquered greece, i think Turkey was the next state on his wish list.
 

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Germany Idiocy through Italian Eyes:

The Italians performed poorly militarily. The Germans performed poorly politically, economically and militarily. Here, I'll prove it.

Dr James Sadkovich,

European History, University of Wisconsin.

‘German Military Incompetence Through Italian Eyes’

War In History 1994 1: 39

Commentary



In his insightful article, ‘German military incompetence through Italian eyes’, Dr James Sadkovich has given us a long overdue reevaluation of the Italian-German alliance. He begins with a quote from Gaetano Salvemini who in 1969 believed Anglo-Saxon racism less severe than German racism owing to “Anglo-American priggishness”. But in the final analysis, the two types of racism – German and British – have over the years succeeded in bouncing off and validating each other with centrifugal acceleration to the extent that so-called “Italian military incompetence” has become an inseparable corollary of perceived German “efficiency”. Even supposedly more balanced Anglo-Saxon writers like MacGregor Knox still maintain this binary view of the Italian military as the mirror-opposite of the German. They seem incapable of analyzing the Italian military effort in its own terms. As an exasperated Guiseppe Mancinelli, a liason officer between the Italian and German armored forces in Africa declared, “The perception of Italian inferiority inevitably was applied to every unfavorable and unfortunate episode from which the Germans were certainly not immune… and the responsibility of failure was thus assigned solely to the Italians.” Interestingly, he accuses the Germans of being easily discouraged, refusing to confront the British whom they saw as formidable racial cousins but instead foolishly attacked the Russians, whom they perceived as genetically and culturally inferior. Arrogant and blinded by their ideologically racist beliefs, their refusal to take Italy as a serious ally made defeat in the Mediterranean inevitable while “their inability to assess their enemies accurately led them to botch the diplomatic preparation and military planning for every major operation they studied, from Sealion to Barbarossa.”

Diplomatic Incompetence

In the Spring of 1943, Vittorio Ambrosio compiled a list of German deficiencies. It was a long list which included their failure to invade Britain in 1940; their botched effort to bring Spain into the war and seal off the Mediterranean by taking Gibraltar; denying Italy the use of Tunisian ports in 1941-42; postponing the invasion of Malta until it was too late; foolishly attacking the Soviet Union in 1941 and resisting Italian attempts to obtain a separate peace; woefully inadequate intelligence and finally, for provoking war in 1939 despite Hitler’s promises and Italian warnings not to do so before 1942. Moreover, from 1940 to 1943, the Italians were constantly repeating to the Germans after each of their fiascoes a belated “I told you so”. In fact it was Mussolini who had a better grasp of the international environment than Hitler, whose strategic view of the world was parochial and provincially Austrian.

Germany’s invasion of Poland in 1939 left a bitter taste in the mouths of Mussolini and Ciano, who realized early on that here was a ally they couldn’t trust. Ciano considered the Germans “arrogant and reckless” scoundrels. It was Mussolini who displayed a keener understanding of the British than the generally clueless Germans. For example, while they were at a loss to explain British reactions, the Italians correctly predicted British reactions in the Mediterranean. The Italian diplomatic corps considered the Germans amateurish newcomers, dumb Teutons wrecking havoc wherever they went. The Italian ambassador in Berlin, Bernardo Attolico was generally disgusted by their “absolute lack of any moral sense”.

It was the Italians who warned Hitler that an attack through Belgium would alienate the US. But as usual, their advice fell on deaf ears. German deficiency in common sense was also revealed when they gladly sold weapons and machinery to Yugoslavia instead of their real ally, Italy. Nor could the Germans admit that their attack on Poland was a tragic mistake which was to have severe repercussions.

The Germans consistently broke promises to their Italian ally, made worse by their interference and overweening nature in Italian affairs and spheres of influence, particularly in the Balkans.

Strategic incompetence.

Rather than cooperate activity and energetically with their Axis partner, the Italians found the Germans to be mentally sluggish and perfidious. As Attolico and other Italian diplomats got to know the Germans better, they found them to be without wit or charm, moderately intelligent, boastful and arrogant. They considered Ribbentrop a fool.

The Germans delayed their promised material support to Italy, finding one excuse after another, while at the same time, demanding workers and raw materials from their poorer ally. The Italian diplomat Lanza noted that while the Germans might blindly obey the Nazis, they actually despised them as “petty individuals, vulgar, ignorant, greedy and immoral”. While Hitler dithered in the Fall of 1940, the Italians were busy expelling the British out of Somaliland and invaded Egypt. The failure of nerve displayed by the Germans in dealing with Britain added to Italy’s woes. Rather than invade Britain and knock it out of the war quickly, the foolhardy Germans decided to invade the USSR instead! The inanity of the Germans was, for the Italians, beyond belief! As Sadkovich caustically observed: “In the end, the Italians wasted three months waiting for Operation Sealion, whose cancellation allowed Britain to rebound, gave France hope, and caused other states either to gravitate to the British orbit or, like Spain, to remain neutral.” By September 1940, even the German public were demoralized by the war and by British raids on their cities.

Had the Germans lent the Italians adequate material support; had they attempted seriously to plan with the Italian general staff, or had they risked an action across the English Channel in 1940, the war could have taken a very different turn. Even a German failure would have disrupted Britain’s buildup in the Mediterranean, and a partial success might have led to a negotiated peace. Instead, mixed signals from Hitler and Ribbentrop, Germany’s invasion of its ally’s sphere of influence, and Berlin’s indifference to Italian requests for raw materials and weaponry at a time when the German army was idle, triggered an Italian attack on Greece and distracted Rome’s attention from Africa just as Germany’s failure to invade Britain allowed London to reinforce Egypt.

In short, Sadkovich rightly points out that it was German timidity that botched the Axis war effort in 1940; German arrogance that led to the invasion of Russia before dealing adequately with Britain; and German duplicity that kept the Italians in the dark and generated suspicion. The German reassurance that the war would soon be over, that Britain was finished and they had won, made them look foolish in the eyes of their supposedly “valued” allies, the Italians.

The Italians were no fools. They had a better grasp of the strategic and diplomatic realities than the Germans. They looked upon their “Teutonic ally” and their antics with growing horror and nervousness. But by September 1940, it was too late for the Italians to get out of the alliance with their unreliable and erratic ally. All the Italians could do was to grit their teeth and hope for the best. But the best never came. Rather than improve, their German allies became worse as the war progressed.

By mid-July 1941, the wife of at least one German diplomat in Rome was referring to Hitler as that ’idiot’. As with the Italians underestimating Greek determination and fierce resistance in their invasion of Greece, likewise the Germans woefully underestimated the Russians. But rather than admit their mistake, the Germans had no choice but to persevere. As one Italian diplomat said of Hitler’s headquarters in late August 1941, “Reality ceases and a detached and isolated world begins here.” Ribbentrop and Dietrich were continually announcing the defeat of the Soviet Union in a matter of weeks. Such pronouncements were considered absurd by Italian generals, while Ciano ridiculed the Germans for singing their “hymn of victory too soon”.

As Sadkovich noted, “a disastrous situation in the east was particularly embarrassing to Berlin because as racially inferior Russian troops routed German armies outside Moscow, well-disciplined Italian forces stymied a superior British opponent in Africa where Auchinleck’s offensive only barely succeeded” no thanks to Rommel’s recklessness and Hitler’s veto of Rome’s request to ship supplies through Tunisian ports.

By Christmas of 1941 and with the invasion of Russia stalled and looking more and more the fiasco it really was, Lanza and others began to see Hitler as a “nut and fantastic dilettante” while Otto von Bismarck in Rome remarked casually to Anfuso that Hitler was a “blundering ass”. To the great amusement of both Mussolini and Ciano, the Germans overnight became “almost cordial” as they invented excuses for their failures. A more contrite Hitler asked Mussolini (as well as the Hungarians and Romanians) for more Italian divisions to bolster the Russian front. Both the Hungarians and Romanians balked at his request, but the genial Mussolini took pity on the Germans and obliged while dismissing him as that “big jack-ass”. Ciano underlined how ridiculous the Germans were becoming by February 1942 when he noted that every time the Germans issued a communiqué that things were going well on the Russian front, they get a thrashing. And by the Spring of 42, Pavolini found the Germans depressed, the Nazi regime in crisis and jokes about Hitler’s incompetence circulating in Berlin. By now, there were those in the Italian leadership who were urging Mussolini to find a way out of the war and free Italy from its duplicitous and incompetent ally. Even the Japanese were having doubts about their supposedly “valiant” German allies. Ciano wryly noted that whenever things were going badly for the Germans, the normally overbearing Germans became more cordial and courteous!

By the summer of 1942, most Italians were heartedly sick of their German “allies”. In October, Mussolini bitterly complained to his son-in-law that “if we lose this war, it will be because of the political stupidity of the Germans.” Luccioli, who accompanied Lanza, Alfieri, and Ciano to Hitler’s eastern lair, also despaired of the Germans, noting that “one could not discuss art and literature with the Nazis, and to discuss ’politics with Hitler and his men was like playing the violin in front of a rabid dog”.

And the more the Germans failed, the more they blamed their Italian allies. Both in Russia and North Africa the Germans had a habit of deploying Italians in front-line positions whilst making their escape in Italian vehicles at the rear!

While Mussolini and the Italians pressed for a separate peace, the incompetent and ideologically blinded Germans continued to pursue their dreams of world conquest as their “Aryan birthright”, even when it became clear to all, they were incapable of winning. According to Sadkovich, it was Hitler rather than Mussolini who was the inept dilettante, who failed to grasp that war was as much a political as a military activity. Thus it was Hitler who was the “tragic buffoon”, not Mussolini. Whatever errors the Italians made, the Germans made just as many, but being the dominant power, the repercussions of their blunders were much more severe than any the Italians could have made.

The reality was that it was the Germans who were the bad allies of the Italians, and not the other way around. If they had listened to the more experienced Italians, especially in the political and diplomatic spheres in which Italian diplomats far excelled their German counterparts, then the Germans may not have made as many fatal mistakes and dragged Italy down with it.

SOURCE: http://www.comandosupremo.com/german-military-incompetence-through-italian-eyes.html
 
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Praetonia

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Yes, it was the reaction to "how do we defend against the Germans", with the reply being "we don't because we're going to collapse already if we do as much as sneeze".
You are presenting dismay at being imminently encircled by panzer divisions (literally, the same day!) as dismay at the performance of the Italian army. That is not a reasonable reading of the quotes by any stretch.
 
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You are presenting dismay at being imminently encircled by panzer divisions (literally, the same day!) as dismay at the performance of the Italian army. That is not a reasonable reading of the quotes by any stretch.
I am not saying that, and you should really stop put words in one's mouth.

The Greek commanders were aware that, given the continued Italian pressure, the lack of Greek motor transport and pack animals, the physical exhaustion of the Greek army and the poor transport network of Epirus, any retreat was likely to end up in disintegration. They had pressed in vain for a retreat already before the start of the German attack but now they petitioned Pitsikas to surrender.
This is the point. Greece had gone from counterattack, to defence, to desperate defence - because if you can't retreat without being overrun, it means you are overly dependent on the position you are in, and any kind of redeployment would open gashes in the defence.
 
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???

Again, the fact that Greece couldnt defeat Germany doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the Italian army. Greece would have collapsed in the face of the German attack even if there had been no Albanian campaign!

For that matter Italy would have collapsed if it had received the German attack Greece received.
 
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???

Again, the fact that Greece couldnt defeat Germany doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the Italian army. Greece would have collapsed in the face of the German attack even if there had been no Albanian campaign!

For that matter Italy would have collapsed if it had received the German attack Greece received.
I don't even know if you're listening anymore or if you're just moving on to trolling. Pitsikas was commander of the force facing the Italians, and Epirus was the section Italy was attacking. If the commander of the army in Epirus, which is Pitsikas, tells he can't move an inch from where he is or he will be trampled, it very well can't be by the Germans moving on Thessaloniki. That the army actually collapsed on the 15th, three days after that situation, is owing to the arrival of the Germans, but what you just won't concede is that Italy was still way stronger than Greece, and while a competent army would have swatted the Greeks aside, they had still grinded their army to the point that there were only green reservists out of Albania, and in Albania the supply situation was bad, the men were exhausted, and the whole front was by then holding just by the skin of their teeth.
 
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Yes, amazingly the Italians can win a battle when the entire enemy army is cut off from supply and forced to turn and fight a second, and much more powerful opponent. Which proves what exactly? Your standards are absurd and Italy itself does not meet them as the Italian army would have also completely collapsed if the Germans had attacked the North of Albania rather than Greece.
 
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amalric de g.

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Germany Idiocy through Italian Eyes:

The Italians performed poorly militarily. The Germans performed poorly politically, economically and militarily. Here, I'll prove it.



SOURCE: http://www.comandosupremo.com/german-military-incompetence-through-italian-eyes.html

If you dance with the devil, you should know what happens to you. Hitler was a lunatic moron and Mussolini and his companions should have known this and stay away from him.
No one forced Mussolini into the Axis.
The whole idea of fascism hegemony over the world was bullshit.

???

Again, the fact that Greece couldnt defeat Germany doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the Italian army. Greece would have collapsed in the face of the German attack even if there had been no Albanian campaign!

For that matter Italy would have collapsed if it had received the German attack Greece received.

What? No Italy had smashed Germany and Mussolini had dictated the peace in the smoldering ruins of Berlin. ;)
 
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Yes, amazingly the Italians can win a battle when the entire enemy army is cut off from supply and forced to turn and fight a second, and much more powerful opponent.

Ho, you mean like the campaign of France everyone mocks in that forum ? :3 Come on, be honest at least. You can't tell Germany won in Belgium/Northern France because it was the best country, and then that Italy won because "lulz they're cheating they encircled the enemy !".
 
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Ho, you mean like the campaign of France everyone mocks in that forum ? :3 Come on, be honest at least. You can't tell Germany won in Belgium/Northern France because it was the best country, and then that Italy won because "lulz they're cheating they encircled the enemy !".
In that instance Germany both pinned and encircled the allied army - a strategic masterpiece. In this case Italy simply got stuck, having intended to break through frontally, and was bailed out by Germany, the German contribution being decisive.

If Germany had invaded Belgium, got stuck, then Romania had broken through at Sedan and encircled the allied armies, would be good grounds for saying the Battle of France was won by Romania, not Germany.
 
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In that instance Germany both pinned and encircled the allied army - a strategic masterpiece. In this case Italy simply got stuck, having intended to break through frontally, and was bailed out by Germany, the German contribution being decisive.

If Germany had invaded Belgium, got stuck, then Romania had broken through at Sedan and encircled the allied armies, would be good grounds for saying the Battle of France was won by Romania, not Germany.

So that's it, when Germany does something its a strategical masterpiece. Yes definitely it was a masterpiece to send your troops far away from your supply lines and to supply on civilian fuels reserves. That's what normal people calls dumbness. For me its exactly the same thing, it was a stalemate at the front line, some guys did a very stupid yet lucky thing and so there was no more stalemate but a quite interesting victory. On the other side of the med, there's another stalemate, some guys breakthrough, and then no more stalemate cause the army can't fight without supplies. Quite similar. Yet germans stronks and italy can't into med.
 
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32karakter

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In that instance Germany both pinned and encircled the allied army - a strategic masterpiece. In this case Italy simply got stuck, having intended to break through frontally, and was bailed out by Germany, the German contribution being decisive.

If Germany had invaded Belgium, got stuck, then Romania had broken through at Sedan and encircled the allied armies, would be good grounds for saying the Battle of France was won by Romania, not Germany.

Im trying to get your overall point, and i cant. So, what is your position in the grand scheme of things concerning Italy in the ww2?
 

geogus

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the Italian army only drew up the binary reorganization plans in 1938, only put them into effect in 1940, and some triangular divisions continued on until the end of the war


Im no expert in military, so I have to ask. What are binary divisions and triangular (trinary?) divisions.

Are the number of brigades in a division?

If anyone is kind enough, id like a real life explanation and game mechanics explanation.

In my experience the devs tend to be very UK-US-Germany-Sweden focused


I know paradox is a swedish company and is only natural their games have a lot a swedish flavor.

Im brazilian and if I had a Pc war developer company i would create a paraguay war pc game (I believe it could make a very fun strategy game)

But HOI IV is about WWII and sweeden doesnt seems the most important country.

As far as I know, sweden was a neutral during WWII and one of the reasons Germany invaded Norway was to secure swedish suply of iron.

So it was like sweeden was a germay hostage (dont want to be rude)

I m not sure, but i supose Swedden might have been worried against Soviet union when it DoWed Finland.

So i bet Sweden spent the war preparing to defend against a invasion that could come from any faction. (allies to disrupt Axis iron supply, Germany to put its hand in iron supply and cut the middle man and SU, because they want to turn anyone socialist, and iron supply, i Supose)

Is there any other important facts regarding sweeden in WWII ii might no be aware?
 

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Germany Idiocy through Italian Eyes:
The Italians performed poorly militarily. The Germans performed poorly politically, economically and militarily. Here, I'll prove it.
SOURCE: http://www.comandosupremo.com/german-military-incompetence-through-italian-eyes.html
I think JJ Sadcovich should be required reading for any student of WW2 -- not because he is right. He is neither right nor wrong. Rather, he is an advocate for a grossly neglected perspective of WW2. All history is by definition biased, and the traditional Anglo/German version of WW2 is no different. That perspective has more than enough advocates already. Seeing the struggle from a different perspective is refreshing.

If you dance with the devil, you should know what happens to you. Hitler was a lunatic moron and Mussolini and his companions should have known this and stay away from him.
No one forced Mussolini into the Axis.
The whole idea of fascism hegemony over the world was bullshit.
It is hard to argue with that! It is just impossible to justify Mussolini's reliance on Hitler's fidelity. However, I think at least some sympathy might be in order. Mussolini joined the war against France and Great Britain based upon assurances that France was about to fall (correct) but also that Great Britain would sue for peace or would soon thereafter be invaded (not). Imagine Benito's consternation after joining the war against the world's naval super power with his lines of communication precariously stretched across the Mediterranean and down to East Africa when Hitler informs him that Sealion has been called off, oh, and by the way, we just launched an unprovoked ideological death struggle against the Soviet Union -- surprise!
 
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oh, and by the way, we just launched an unprovoked ideological death struggle against the Soviet Union -- surprise!
:D:DPerhaps it's because I just watched the ExtraCredits series on Kursk so "death struggle" really carries some weight behind it, but with "Surprise ideological death struggle," you may have won the thread.
 
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I am going to reopen this thread in a moment, and feel free to continue on the path it was before multiple posts were removed. However I shall caution you, if you end up being banned it will not be for just a few days....
 

amalric de g.

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Back on topic, when Italy starts with binary Divisions, then PDX should give them the right numbers, nearly all countries start in 01.01.1936 with their original OOBs, so it´s only fair.
Give Italy a National Focus with a malus, to represent the dificulties they faced and of they go. The player or AI should be allowed to remove the Focus of course.
And please PDX don´t forget the BBs.:)
 
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Back on topic, when Italy starts with binary Divisions, then PDX should give them the right numbers, nearly all countries start in 01.01.1936 with their original OOBs, so it´s only fair.
Give Italy a National Focus with a malus, to represent the dificulties they faced and of they go. The player or AI should be allowed to remove the Focus of course.
And please PDX don´t forget the BBs.:)
+1
 
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