Italian Army Seems Underpowered

[WeissRaben]

It sounds like you are saying the Italians won the war because the Greeks had to use all of their army to defeat them. Which is an interesting way of defining victory.

No doubt, if given time, the Italians on their own would have defeated a Greece on her own. The issue there is, that was not even close to happening in 190-41, and then the Brits began lending serious aid to the Greeks in early 1941. There was a real prospect that Anglo-Hellenic forces might eventually mount attacks that would've pushed Italy entirely out of Albania.

Of course the Greeks didn't leave half their force at the Yugoslav border to defend against a hypothetical German attack form there: at the time Yugoslavia was a neutral nation and not a border that was a threat, and besides, I'm sure the Greeks themselves knew the game was up if the Germans attacked anyways.

No, I'm not saying that. The war was indecisive up to the point the Germans attacked, with a heavy slant in the Italians' favour becoming heavier as time passed, but Italy didn't manage to end Greece on their own before Hitler decided he would show his vassal ally how you get it done. I'm saying that "Greece won the war against Italy" or "Greece would have won, given time" is ridiculous - and Britain intervening more was a nice tale, but while there were fears, the British army was already fighting almost everywhere, and what they could give they had given. There would be no wonderful charge of British troops to save a Greek army that, while having bloodied Italy way beyond what it would have been reasonable, was going down the drain.

 

[keynes2.0]

Some very interesting explanations of the fighting between Italy and Greece here. Thanks to the people providing those.

It sounds to me like the way to depict Italy's failure against greece would be to limit their supply limit in Albania before the war with Greece with a special modifier. That way Italy would be limited in the size of their deployment and would struggle against Greece at first. After the war with Greece goes on long enough, Italy would have this special modifier lifted.

 

[Constans]

No, I'm not saying that. The war was indecisive up to the point the Germans attacked, with a heavy slant in the Italians' favour becoming heavier as time passed, but Italy didn't manage to end Greece on their own before Hitler decided he would show his vassal ally how you get it done. I'm saying that "Greece won the war against Italy" or "Greece would have won, given time" is ridiculous - and Britain intervening more was a nice tale, but while there were fears, the British army was already fighting almost everywhere, and what they could give they had given. There would be no wonderful charge of British troops to save a Greek army that, while having bloodied Italy way beyond what it would have been reasonable, was going down the drain.

Agree to disagree, I've not read anything indicating the Greek army was close to being defeated by the Italians or that their position was untenable on that front, obviously, it was strategically untenable given a German invasion but their entire existence was untenable in the face of German intervention, so they were hedging their bets. They had just stopped the most organized and best offensive the Italians launched, allowing virtually no gains.

The British hadn't even participated in fighting the Italians, and had only just started landing men in Greece in March. Given time to allow a bigger British buildup, one could understand why Hitler thought it necessary to intervene and end the conflict quickly.

 

[keynes2.0]

Agree to disagree, I've not read anything indicating the Greek army was close to being defeated by the Italians or that their position was untenable on that front

What about the things people posted earlier in this thread? The Italians rapidly building up a numerical advantage and the greeks not having any reserves?

 

[amalric de g.]

I could swear that I faced a Matilda in a Greek Scenario

It's right there on the box!

Western Front from 1939 - 1941 mhhh let me guess, it´s a game. The good old Avalon Hill games.

Maybe the Kiwis or Aussis had some Matildas in their Infantry Divisions.

 

[1337Hospitaller]

I guess you missed post #38 in this thread...

>6 minor actions that had no impact on the war outweigh Italy's casualty ratio of 100:1 and diversion of millions of German troops

Nice try.

 

[Constans]

What about the things people posted earlier in this thread? The Italians rapidly building up a numerical advantage and the greeks not having any reserves?

Well, the Greeks were getting reserves in the form of British expeditionary forces at least.

But I will say I'd like to read some actual sources on the conflict, the articles I've found haven't gone into detail about the state of the Greek Army in April 1941, they focus more on the aftermath of the Spring Offensive and the Italian-German diplomatic tit-for-tat.

 

[Denkt]

Of the major axis, Italy had by far the least amount of casulties, even to the ratio of their army size.

The game dont start you out in the exact historical position, things have been changed to add flavor and for the sake of gameplay. Smaller divisions are not a disadvantage they are just diffrent and if you dont like it you can change them.

 

[Gort11]

Of the major axis, Italy had by far the least amount of casulties, even to the ratio of their army size.

Well, they had the least amount of fighting, so...

 

[leeuw]

We can endlessly prophesise what might have happened. The fact is that Italy did not succeed in defeating Greece, and was pushed back by Greece, and was not able to remove Greece from its territory, despite trying. I don't have anything more to say on that matter.

If one wants to be precise, who lose their territory to Greek army were... the Albanians. Italian forces failed the first offensive, it is right. But a keypoint was the retreat of the Albanian forces in the Coriza sector, which forced the re-organizing Italian troops to a fully disorganized retreat. It has been a very smart decision to leave in command of the Albanian troops the same general who led the "resistance" to the Italian invasion in 1939.

Anyway, no matter of what and who, the real Italian handicap was not in the triangular or binary or pseudo-binary structure of its divisions. It was in the lack of leadership which led to a series of wrong decisions. For this reason, I think that it would be better if PDX nerfed Italy acting on the parameters which can be related to leadership, such as org, morale, or reducing the bonus to factory production efficiency, rather than forcing a completely a-historical structure to its OOB. IMHO, it would be better if Italy starts with the right OOB and then has to choose in the Focus Tree between quality and quantity for its Army, with the AI historically setted to choose quantity.

 

[Gort11]

So why was the Italian leadership so poor?

 

[leeuw]

So why was the Italian leadership so poor?

Cause the Italian government system of that time was not a meritocracy, but based on influence peddling. The real legacy of the Roman Empire, which is still the backbone of Italy.

 

[JerkyJerry]

...At a prewar diplomatic conference, the Nazi Foreign Minister Ribbentrop "sniffed" to Eden and Churchill that if there was another war, the Italians would be on Germany's side!
To which Churchill supposedly replied: "that seems only fair, we had them last time!"...

 

[tommylotto]

They had just stopped the most organized and best offensive the Italians launched, allowing virtually no gains.

Actually, that offensive was also rushed. It was launched by the Italians in a hurried fashion in an attempt to preempt the Germans intervention. The Italians wanted to show some gains before the Germans swept in. It did not result in the gains hoped for by Mussolini, but it did wear out the Greek army to the point it was shooting deserters and couldn't redeploy forces to face the Germans without their army disintegrating. So there is that...

 

[Secret Master]

Actually, that offensive was also rushed. It was launched by the Italians in a hurried fashion in an attempt to preempt the Germans intervention. The Italians wanted to show some gains before the Germans swept in. It did not result in the gains hoped for by Mussolini, but it did wear out the Greek army to the point it was shooting deserters and couldn't redeploy forces to face the Germans without their army disintegrating. So there is that...

I hate to be picky, but that is not exactly a rousing endorsement for Italian military performance in their conflict with Greece.

I find it difficult to call the war against Greece a victory for Italy in either a military or political sense. It achieved none of Italy's war aims, and cost Italy a ton of men and equipment.

I see that the failure of this offensive (rushed or no) to preempt the German invasion is a prime indicator of the failure of the war to achieve its aims in general. Sure, the war aims are stupid, but that doesn't really change the fact that the failure to preempt the German invasion means that no war aims were really satisfied.

 

[tommylotto]

Well, I'm not saying that either. I don't think any one is. I think everyone agrees that Italy's involvement in Greece was a fail with a capital FAIL. From top to bottom, from start to finish, poor performance. I was just making the point that the Spring Offensive was not the best that the Italians could do. Rather, it was the best that the Italians could do before the Germans intervened. It also occupied and wore down the Greeks, giving the Germans a relative cake walk.

 

[keynes2.0]

This keeps going in circles. Someone says "Yeah, that means they failed. So they suck." to which someone replies "no, they failed because of the campaign was half baked" whereupon someone goes back to "Yeah, that means they failed. So they suck." The people explaining the failures of the offensive are aware that the offensive was a failure, they are just explaining why. No one needs to keep repeating back at them that it was a failure.

 

[JerkyJerry]

Let's just all agree. And if you don't agree with that then let's just agree to disagree.

Let's end this on a good note by naming your favorite war related pizza:
Bacon
Onion
Olives
Mushroom
The BOOM Pizza!

 

[The Balbinater]

sigh, not ANOTHER one of these threads ((((

I have been teaching myself Italian so that I can try to educate myself about the REAL Italian war effort......

what have you armchair historians been doing?

 

[BrotherSurplice]

Thats the light tank Mk VI, the 1st light tank Brigade had 168 of this tanks for greece. Sorry no Matildas.

In fairness, Hearts of Iron IV would have us believe that these and the Matildas are the same.