What you asked is literally the easiest thing to do. Putting historical build order and OOB? Everyone knows how to do it. Everyone knows it. Including surprise surprise Paradox.
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Italian Army Seems Underpowered
- Thread starter MANkoto
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What you asked is literally the easiest thing to do. Putting historical build order and OOB? Everyone knows how to do it. Everyone knows it. Including surprise surprise Paradox.
Nope, because to reorganize you need army experience which you don't have at 1936. You gain some through war with ethiopia, but this takes a bit of time.
I agree, this could be a good solution. I have never played italy in HOI 3, but it would be sad to see a major power (and Italy was important for the war. Also her fuck-ups where important since Germany had to assign many men to help the Italian army) be nerfed so strong.
Italy should also be fun to play!
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In 1936, the Italian infantry division consisted of 3 regiments of 3 battalions.
In 1938, the divisions structure were reorganized into 2 regiments of 3 battalions.
In 1940, on the eve of war, the Italian divisions were supplemented by a CCNN legion of 2 battalions.
So, in 1936 the divisions had 9 battalions, in 1938 they had 6, and in 1940 they had 8 battalions -- only one less battalion than a traditional triangular division.
However, Paradox just gives them 2 regiments of 3 battalions for 6 total battalions. That decision does not match the situation at game start and does not match the situation when Italy finally goes to war. There really is no good justification for this decision other than to assure that Italian divisions do poorly.
The solution I have always suggested (multiple times for a very long time) is to have the Italian divisions start in 1936 with its historic 9 battalion divisions. Then by event or NF in 1938 give the Italian player the option to reorganize the Italian infantry division. The reorganization might actually be a good thing. It might help equipment shortages or might free up personnel and equipment to create more divisions. It is a classic quantity vs. quality decision.
Unfortunately, podcast confirmed in the modding DD that such an event is not possible. An event can add a template to the template list but cannot change an existing template or cause a specific division to change its template -- which I think is a crying shame and a waste of a very cool division design system. I'd like the Italian divisions to reorganized as discussed herein. I'd like the US divisions to change from square to triangular, then latter add an independent tank battalion. I'd like the early SS divisions to morph from brigades to uber overstocked Panzer divisions. The player can do that by expending combat experience, but apparently there is no way to cause the AI controlled players to make these changes.
In 1938, the divisions structure were reorganized into 2 regiments of 3 battalions.
In 1940, on the eve of war, the Italian divisions were supplemented by a CCNN legion of 2 battalions.
So, in 1936 the divisions had 9 battalions, in 1938 they had 6, and in 1940 they had 8 battalions -- only one less battalion than a traditional triangular division.
However, Paradox just gives them 2 regiments of 3 battalions for 6 total battalions. That decision does not match the situation at game start and does not match the situation when Italy finally goes to war. There really is no good justification for this decision other than to assure that Italian divisions do poorly.
The solution I have always suggested (multiple times for a very long time) is to have the Italian divisions start in 1936 with its historic 9 battalion divisions. Then by event or NF in 1938 give the Italian player the option to reorganize the Italian infantry division. The reorganization might actually be a good thing. It might help equipment shortages or might free up personnel and equipment to create more divisions. It is a classic quantity vs. quality decision.
Unfortunately, podcast confirmed in the modding DD that such an event is not possible. An event can add a template to the template list but cannot change an existing template or cause a specific division to change its template -- which I think is a crying shame and a waste of a very cool division design system. I'd like the Italian divisions to reorganized as discussed herein. I'd like the US divisions to change from square to triangular, then latter add an independent tank battalion. I'd like the early SS divisions to morph from brigades to uber overstocked Panzer divisions. The player can do that by expending combat experience, but apparently there is no way to cause the AI controlled players to make these changes.
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That´s fine, but there is also the issue of where they should spend regarding navy and airforce. Which also implies how balance should work and AI.
It´s a pretty complex topic. Buffing battleships will buff the brits more, as they start with more of them, for example. It´s simply impossible to talk about Italy without talking about what UK will do and where their armies will be placed.
It´s a pretty complex topic. Buffing battleships will buff the brits more, as they start with more of them, for example. It´s simply impossible to talk about Italy without talking about what UK will do and where their armies will be placed.
While it is a pity it can not be as it was, how much of an impediment will this be to the average player?
What is more important is that it will affect and change the AI's behaviour and hopefully the Italians will perform as they did historically.
What is more important is that it will affect and change the AI's behaviour and hopefully the Italians will perform as they did historically.
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Considering it would mean the in-game Italian army would be 50% smaller than in IRL? It would be a massive malice.
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It seems you are basing it on launching date in 1937 but that was far away, almost 3 years, for the BB to be battle ready (commissioned). In HOI3 when ship is out of production queue is ready for battle, IRL it wasn't. To have it at 75% completed in '36 seems excessive.
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There is something else to consider. In 01/01/1936, only the divisions involved in the Ethiopian war were at full manpower and equipment. To achieve this, brigades and equipment were moved around from divisions at home to strength the ones fighting.
What left in Italy, even on paper a division, were actually under-strength and under-equipped not to mention the divisions labeled as "..II" that were an empty shell, for training purpose, of the ones deployed abroad.
And what about the divisions you have in 1936 but not anymore in 1939, like the CC.NN. ones from 5 to 7 that were used only for the Ethiopian war and after dismissed? You are going to keep these because you know war is coming.
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But they kind of did?
Italy lost to Greece historically. If the Germans had not intervened, Greece was set to defeat Italy.
In 1940 a British force of 36,000 overran and destroyed an Italian army of 150,000 in North Africa.
Their navy was quite good and their air force was OK. Their army never performed well. That all said, it is fair to point out that Italy never fully mobilised either.
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Eaten by Greece as in annexed. Greece threw off Italy's offensives, but the Italians were never in a position to be invaded and annexed by Greece.
As for the British force, it all depends on circumstances. Remember the Germans also had stellar ratios against the Soviets, but that did not mean the Soviets were a paper tiger.
As for the British force, it all depends on circumstances. Remember the Germans also had stellar ratios against the Soviets, but that did not mean the Soviets were a paper tiger.
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Italy being annexed by Greece is unrealistic of course. Especially given that there was no land connection between Greece and Italy through belligerent territory!
The Soviets were not a paper tiger because they could eat the ratio.
The Soviets were not a paper tiger because they could eat the ratio.
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Unlike the Italians, the Soviets performed much better later in the war.
Italy didn't really succeed anywhere but in Albania.
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A slightly off topic observation. Have any of you ever played a strategy game that is not HOI ?
How to make Italy less powerful without nerfing their starting divisions ? Set Italy AI to 'easy', while Germany is on 'hard'.
I don't think that you can set seperate difficulty for specific countries in HOI, but... WHY?
How to make Italy less powerful without nerfing their starting divisions ? Set Italy AI to 'easy', while Germany is on 'hard'.
I don't think that you can set seperate difficulty for specific countries in HOI, but... WHY?
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Trying to modernise the armed forces without the industrial capacity to do it was a real killer for Italy.
As for the invasion of Greece, if the Italian Generals who planned the invasion had not feared repercussions and submitted the proper number of troops for the "Two Week Campaign" then perhaps the invasion of Greece would not be a disaster despite the advance warning Greece received.
As for the invasion of Greece, if the Italian Generals who planned the invasion had not feared repercussions and submitted the proper number of troops for the "Two Week Campaign" then perhaps the invasion of Greece would not be a disaster despite the advance warning Greece received.
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#1 Here is the Italian conquest of British Somaliland it ended with the British evacuating(The British did another "Dunkirk").
#2 The not so well known Operation Abstention - Here the Italians hindered a British Commando invasion on the island of Kastelorizo in Greece.
#3 Another one is when 700 hundred Italian soldiers on horseback charged 2500 Russian soldiers of the 304th infantry division and routed them, the clash of the Savoia Cavelleria at Isbuscenskij.
#4 Regia Aeronautica bombed British oil refinerys in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. These raids had a great importance in the technical and propagandistic side. In fact, after the raid, the RAF was compelled to place a squadron of fighters near the refineries and protect the plants with a couple of battalions and some batteries of antiaircraft guns.
#5 Italian frogmen of the Decima Mas raiding Alexandria and disabled the two British Battleships HMS Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, a tanker and a destroyer. The Italian fleet had temporarily wrested naval supremacy in the east-central Mediterranean from the Royal Navy.
So it seems they did succeed in more places than Albania... Both strategical and tactical.
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The war in short - The Italians invaded Greece, the Greeks counterattacked and invaded Albania, the frontline froze more or less and didnt move much.
With most of the Greek army on the Albanian border the Germans launched Operation Marita and had a great success, oh well you can read all about it here.
The Italians did not lose to Greece.
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Italy's goal was to conquer Greece; not only did they fail to do so but lost territory of their own while taking almost twice as many casualties. At the point at which the Germans intervened they were further from accomplishing their goals than before they had started the war. That's a loss by any reasonable definition.
The Germans, for sure, did not lose to Greece.
The Germans, for sure, did not lose to Greece.
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