Italian Army Seems Underpowered

[Centerbe]

I think that the two starting national spirits "Vittoria Mutilata" and "King Vittorio Emanuele" are correct.

nahhh sincerely i dont like such spirits....

Appear clear the country is military and economically nerfed but politically super buffed.
Moreover someone noticed also political party diagram in percentage is wrong?
PNF in the game have over 76% but historically never had more than 60%....
according to the latest elections

 

[TheRomanRuler]

They were. And, while it is absolutely undeniable that the whole operation had been a failure of cosmic proportions, saying that Greece won against Italy (which is what they went for, keep going until anything but Italy put them out of their misery), or even worse that Greece would have won without German intervention (which removes even the fig leaf of the technicality) is ridiculous. Mussolini tried to start a war completely out of spite, in possibly the worse country-by-terrain he could have chosen, given that he was bound in another theater already (and against actually dangerous enemies), without an effective plan or having an effective way to achieve superiority, and that was his grand failure - not the possible conclusion of the invasion itself. That much was a foregone conclusion - even though it took a lot of wasted blood that would have been better spent somewhere else.

It is pretty clear Mussolini DOWed Greece just to get some battle experience to get some new tank variants or modify his division templates

 

[Giob]

The problem is that for a player and with hindsight maximum mobilisation is a no-brainer, in which case every game goes ahistorical.

I don't see how this is a no-brainer. Total mobilization will destroy your industry and give you a big yet woefully incompetent military. And for a country like Italy, with a precarious industrial situation and an Army which relies on almost fanatically loyal troops, drafting everything that is legally sentient seems to be the opposite of a solution.

It is pretty clear Mussolini DOWed Greece just to get some battle experience to get some new tank variants or modify his division templates

With the amount of battle experience Italy got from Greece they should have been able to build Star Destroyers by 1942

 

[Secret Master]

It is pretty clear Mussolini DOWed Greece just to get some battle experience to get some new tank variants or modify his division templates

"We are stuck with these crappy binary divisions. We can't buy tank upgrades and change our templates at the same time. What shall we do, Duce?"

"Invade Greece. And keep losing until we have upgraded the tanks and changed our division template."

 

[Orlunu]

We have 21.000 active Neonazis and right wing guys, we do something against them. Our protection of the Constitution police, tracks them with V-persons and other stuff.

Yay for suppressing political dissidents, I guess.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

You destroyed nothing. My points are valid. The tiny difference between Germany and Italy is, we track our criminal nazis, the oldest SS Guy this year was 93, who was prosecuted.

We have 21.000 active Neonazis and right wing guys, we do something against them. Our protection of the Constitution police, tracks them with V-persons and other stuff.
The Italian Forza has 140.000 members, the Ultras 41.000 and so on. The Italian politicians do nearly nothing against this people.

Thats the difference and as i wrote before, in another thread, i lived three years in Italy and my wife is Italian, i know what i´m talking about.

Ehm... Forza Nuova gained 89.000 votes last election.. And Only few of the voters were members., probably 2.000. Otherwise Forza Nuova is not officially fascist and refuse to revive anything ( on public) that remind fascism or at least official memebers don't do it or get arrested (it happened. They got beaten also by police hard).

And..From where you take numbers for the Ultras? Far-right nationalist/ fascist is a tiny line, really difficult to persecute with law. They are just few people that still believe impossible stuff, extremist of course. The numbers about Ultras are probably invented or at least not beliavable as the the poll you used as proof

After all this, neo-nazi can't be compared to those far right- fascist... Especially in a country with Germany history and you do the right stuff controlling them. Our "far right" were clowns and are clowns if you compare them to their germans counterparts.

If you lived in Italy 3 years and your girlfriend is Italian it is not a fact.. You can have an opinion, but i live inside Italy from a bit and know well enough political environment of my country to tell you what i said. Of course you may have a town full ofextreme right people, but you said previously is just false.

And nope, you have not taken out all the criminals of WW2, but i won't go further u.u Let's stay on topic.

Yay for suppressing political dissidents, I guess.

You shall remember Germany history before say such thing. That is normal that they track them.

 

[shri]

Both of them were hybrid systems in which nominally private businesses continued to exist but which were coordinated at a national level by state-sponsored cartels and extensive regulation.

Actually fascist economics rather closely resemble modern economics, much more so than they did 19th century capitalist economics.

Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan (pre WW and even post WW to some extent), South Korea, Malaysia all had controlled economies similar to fascism and also authoritarian govts and they did achieve a lot of growth, mainly through state sponsored keynesianism and manipulation of external exchange rates. China itself is doing the same now, it is communist only in name.

 

[shri]

Growing a moustache?

I think the photo did not signify moustache, it actually signified Stalin's famous quote- No man, no problem.

 

[MANkoto]

He quoted two statements. Nationalization was un fascist and lack of unilateral power was why Italy didn't grow. You then proceed to argue against an argument he didn't make.

When I said "Mussolini respected people's property rights", that was a refutation of his refutation (A double reverse refutation) where he quoted nationalization is un-fascist.

 

[MANkoto]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a dictatorship that increased standards of living uniformly during its reign. Some persecuted groups of people, confiscated their wealth, and then provided a higher standard of living for other groups of people.

As strange as it sounds, until the World War II ugliness, Mussolini did pretty uniformly increase the standards of living, even for the Croats and Slovenes in Istria. Of course, he also did curb free speech, murder quite a few communists, and invaded some countries, but hey, that's what all the cool kids were doing.

 

[Secret Master]

Mussolini did pretty uniformly increase the standards of living, even for the Croats and Slovenes in Istria.

Where would I find this information? What I read indicated that per capita incomes and standards of living did not really increase for anyone in Italy from the 20s onward.

 

[MANkoto]

Where would I find this information? What I read indicated that per capita incomes and standards of living did not really increase for anyone in Italy from the 20s onward.

I'll try and dig up a source that's not in Italian for you.

 

[Sic Domine]

Problem?

You are right, of course. I suppose it also depends on what kind of growth we are talking about. Raw growth of GDP? Increased production of heavy industry with no corresponding increase in consumer goods production? Higher standard of living?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a dictatorship that increased standards of living uniformly during its reign. Some persecuted groups of people, confiscated their wealth, and then provided a higher standard of living for other groups of people.

Well it's hard to think of any leader who brought uniform growth. But in general, Would Pinochet apply?

 

[NERFGEN]

bah, it will simply make kicking european butt with italy more interesting

 

[Orlunu]

You shall remember Germany history before say such thing.

Oh, I realise that the harsh authoritarianism's traditional over there, that's why I didn't criticise it more strongly.

 

[Secret Master]

Well it's hard to think of any leader who brought uniform growth. But in general, Would Pinochet apply?

Crisis of 1982? And, if certain economic indicators are to be believed, a significant increase in people living at or below the poverty level. Again, the question is always what kind of growth.

Pinochet might be the closest, though. Most dictators don't move towards economic freedom for reasons that are obvious. Economic control, even when it's in the form of really stupid policies, is one of several levers used by autocrats to consolidate power.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

You destroyed nothing. My points are valid. The tiny difference between Germany and Italy is, we track our criminal nazis, the oldest SS Guy this year was 93, who was prosecuted.

We have 21.000 active Neonazis and right wing guys, we do something against them. Our protection of the Constitution police, tracks them with V-persons and other stuff.
The Italian Forza has 140.000 members, the Ultras 41.000 and so on. The Italian politicians do nearly nothing against this people.

Thats the difference and as i wrote before, in another thread, i lived three years in Italy and my wife is Italian, i know what i´m talking about.

Where do you get those numbers? Also, a lot of things done to fight neo nazis are ineffective and only increase their support, and hurts Germany in many other ways. Like banning Swastika, it meant that Neo nazis started to use Imperial German flags and symbols, which previously had nothing to do with nazism - in fact Imperial Germany was ruled by conservatives, who saw nazis as far too extreme.
Or stuff like Angele Merkel thinking it is wrong to display German flags when celebrating. She may not say so openly as she is politician and would loose support, but here is good video about it.

(i am on phone so cant check if that link works, here it is just in case)

Far too many people are ignorant about differences between patriotism, nationalism and nazism, and far too many people just think all of those are bad.

 

[Beagá]

It is pretty clear Mussolini DOWed Greece just to get some battle experience to get some new tank variants or modify his division templates

And his smarter alternate reality version DOWed Yugoslavia after Ethiopia and kept going until 1939, so that no one cared about those silly consumer goods.

 

[GundamMerc]

Congratulations on arresting an old man who was probably barely able to walk out of his own home, if he wasn't already in a nursing home. Such amazing justice there is when they're arresting the guy who followed the orders of the guy who followed the orders of the guy who followed the orders of the guy who organized everything. At this rate I'm sure they'll arrest the family members of ex-Nazis just from guilt by association. Fucking witch hunts.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Congratulations on arresting an old man who was probably barely able to walk out of his own home, if he wasn't already in a nursing home. Such amazing justice there is when they're arresting the guy who followed the orders of the guy who followed the orders of the guy who followed the orders of the guy who organized everything. At this rate I'm sure they'll arrest the family members of ex-Nazis just from guilt by association. Fucking witch hunts.

And Jewish organisations (sounds racist, but they often happen to be Jewish) and others around the world are pushing for more witch hunts. Germans fought in WW2 for same reasons as any allied soldier did: Freedom, Fatherland, peace, children, homes, future. Don`t punish soldiers for being born in the wrong place wrong time.