Italian Army Seems Underpowered

[MANkoto]

Both of those statements are opinion not fact. Wrong opinions, but opinion nonetheless.

Are you denying that Mussolini had checks on his power? How else was he removed from power, without violence? Also, there is a reason the Mussolini claimed that a good alternative name to Fascism was Corporatism, he respected his people's property right. Also, even if I'm wrong on all accounts, those aren't opinions. It's a fact to state that forced nationalization, even if it's wrong... Which it isn't.

 

[Sweed Raver]

To be honest, I was thinking of the Nazi German economy, and thought that the Fascist Italian economical policies would be similar, since both ideologies by most people are labeled "far right". Just looked it up and it seems they were instead quite the opposites in many ways, including the question of state control over assets. Regardless, I still stand by my point about the effects of nationalization of assets.

 

[Ultimate_Hobo]

Again, i would argue national foci would be the best way to represent this. If its true that Italy never properly mobilised its industry (somebody said only 20% of their industry was iirc) then surely it makes more sense to have this industry present but inaccessible than to simply remove it and the national foci can explicitly do this. We have already seen that a national focus can reduce the number of factories required for consumer goods so why can't one do the opposite? Such a focus would represent the failed mobilisation but could also be removable via a national focus. The focus can have requirements such as national unity >= 80, fascism popularity >= 90 or whatever else would be deemed appropriate.

It seems paradox have taken a simpler and lazier approach to weakening Italy in almost every regard. Rather than hampering the Italian leadership and officers they simply reduce the size of the army. Rather than presenting the problems faced by Mussolini when trying to mobilize Italy there is simply less to mobilize.

It seems to me like the foci were designed to represent things like this but many of them are instead generic and nondescript like +2 factories in x state, +50% doctrine research for the next doctrine or +10% army experience instead of interesting and more flavourful things. I think WeissRaben's suggestion on post #142 was excellent and lends itself well towards something like this. A national spirit which reduces NU in addition to a series of spirits giving penalties to army and naval organisation, industry mobilisation and planning bonus (or whatever else) which can be removed through the focus tree but only if you reach high enough national unity which can only be done through helping Nationalist Spain, successfully conquering Greece, Albania, Africa etc etc.

 

[Orlunu]

To be honest, I was thinking of the Nazi German economy, and thought that the Fascist Italian economical policies would be similar, since both ideologies by most people are labeled "far right". Just looked it up and it seems they were instead quite the opposites in many ways, including the question of state control over assets. Regardless, I still stand by my point about the effects of nationalization of assets.

There are fairly major differences between fascism and national socialism, it's a shame this game lumps them in as the same thing.

 

[Praetonia]

To be honest, I was thinking of the Nazi German economy, and thought that the Fascist Italian economical policies would be similar, since both ideologies by most people are labeled "far right". Just looked it up and it seems they were instead quite the opposites in many ways, including the question of state control over assets. Regardless, I still stand by my point about the effects of nationalization of assets.

Both of them were hybrid systems in which nominally private businesses continued to exist but which were coordinated at a national level by state-sponsored cartels and extensive regulation.

Actually fascist economics rather closely resemble modern economics, much more so than they did 19th century capitalist economics.

 

[Praetonia]

Again, i would argue national foci would be the best way to represent this. If its true that Italy never properly mobilised its industry (somebody said only 20% of their industry was iirc) then surely it makes more sense to have this industry present but inaccessible than to simply remove it and the national foci can explicitly do this. We have already seen that a national focus can reduce the number of factories required for consumer goods so why can't one do the opposite? Such a focus would represent the failed mobilisation but could also be removable via a national focus. The focus can have requirements such as national unity >= 80, fascism popularity >= 90 or whatever else would be deemed appropriate.

The problem is that for a player and with hindsight maximum mobilisation is a no-brainer, in which case every game goes ahistorical.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

Il Duce is one of the most popular persons in Italy, still today. If you don´t believe it google him. View attachment 172832

In Italy, you can buy nearly all stuff with his face on. Cups, calendars, busts, wine and so on.

Totally wrong! There is still some fascist inside Italy? taly? Yes! That don't make him one of the most popular people, except for (usually) the conservatives or the nationalist of course.

There are fairly major differences between fascism and national socialism, it's a shame this game lumps them in as the same thing.

Fascism protected capitalists. Blackshirts were engaged by the capitalist inside Italy to crush the socialists and communist protesters and leaders when the Fascism was starting to exist. So, yes, Fascism don't need to nationalize... But if you don't do what was "suggested" to you by the Party there would be serious consequences and i don't go further.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
As we have spoken about war about Italy-Greece inside another topic, i repeat Greeks would have lasted maybe some other months, but they lacked of supplies so their army would have collapsed because they have not enough supplies for all of their men.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Italy best way in this game (as IRL) is a Civil War to change the government and then side with Comitern or Allies. I trust that Italian army would perform well defending the his land, but also this was an argument of another topic.

It is really bad that Paradox give Italy such malus and such bad National spirits

-Vittoria Mutilata for my personal view have no sense. How can you say Italy is more difficult to switch to Communism or Democracy?A Italy have had major Communist party inside all Europe after the war There is no such country crumbling as Italy. The Italians didn't trust Fascism as the German trusted Nazism or Russian Communism or as Japanes trusted the Empire. Italy is the only Axis country that made a Civil War on large scale inside it to fight of the fascist , because Italy didn't just switched side as people like to say, but italians -civilians, cops, deserters- taken arms against fascists and nazi to fight them off when armistice was signed.

-King Vittorio Emmanuele national spirit is a joke... There is not such useless figure inside Italy as the King. He was a little man that tried to don't appear in public as much as he can cause he was too short and he didn't like this. How can such man give boost to national unity???

Now i see also they gave us binary system(1938)... i've not seen the WWW, but i read the people in WWW make jokes about us and of course they give us no chance to switch ideology through national spirits as France or even Germany...

We will need a lot of modding to repair this disaster folks. u.u

They shall make a national spirit for Germany to highlight their lack of intelligence to atttack Soviet Union meanwhile at war with UK to me, but of course they don't right?

I'm so harsh because i'm really sad that so good game as Hoi4 would fall on those little things destroying a lot of fun you can have to play a country as Italy.. The only other stuff that i don't like is how the simplified politics ( hoi 2 system best system) and the lack ofspy system and now this stab at the heart for Italy

 

[amalric de g.]

Totally wrong! There is still some fascist inside Italy? taly? Yes! That don't make him one of the most popular people, except for (usually) the conservatives or the nationalist of course.

Mussolini secondo nel sondaggio sui grandi italiani: ecco perché

in February.19.2010 in a internet survey, Mussolini was rated as the second most important historical political person in italy.

Fascism is already glorified not only on the Internet. In the middle of Rome - in front of the Olympic Stadium - is the petrified Mussolini cult. Even from a distance you can see the large, gleaming white obelisk with the inscription "Mussolini Dux" - Dux, which is the Duce, leader. Every weekend pass tens of thousands fans here. On the way to the stadium they can also admire fascist floor mosaics, which pay homage to the Duce. A few years ago until the plant has been thoroughly renovated. A critical examination of fascism but does not take place. No historical context, no evidence of the crimes of fascism. Nothing. On the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Italy, on 25 April, Parliament President Laura Boldrini has proposed to remove the Mussolini lettering on the obelisk. The result was a Shitstorm.

From a distance to the fascist past, is in Predappio only little trace. At the cemetery of the small town between Bologna and Rimini Benito Mussolini is buried. You descend a few steps, then you stand in front of the sarcophagus. Behind a marble bust of the Duce, on the coffin the Italian flag and always fresh flowers. Before that a bank as in the church, to kneel. Today's admirers were already there - some have written in the condolence book:"Come back!""We need you!""DUX MEA LUX - guide, my light!""Only you can bring Italy back in order!"
The family crypt has become a place of pilgrimage, and in the years dozens of these condolence books have been over packed.

I needed one minute to find x artikels about Mussolini and his cult. Thats only a little compilation.

 

[keynes2.0]

Are you denying that Mussolini had checks on his power?

He quoted two statements. Nationalization was un fascist and lack of unilateral power was why Italy didn't grow. You then proceed to argue against an argument he didn't make.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

Mussolini secondo nel sondaggio sui grandi italiani: ecco perché

in February.19.2010 in a internet survey, Mussolini was rated as the second most important historical political person in italy.

The survey is just a survey( less famous site so), we shall see how many people have been taken as consideration and it say just that people consider him important for Italian history. Of course he is important he have done terrible stuffs.

Fascism is already glorified not only on the Internet. In the middle of Rome - in front of the Olympic Stadium - is the petrified Mussolini cult. Even from a distance you can see the large, gleaming white obelisk with the inscription "Mussolini Dux"

They left all those stuffs and didn't destroyed them, but that don't mean that Italians love Mussolini still. Great infastucture works have been done and building etc.. Still are there. That doesn't mean nothing.

Every weekend pass tens of thousands fans here. On the way to the stadium they can also admire fascist floor mosaics, which pay homage to the Duce. A few years ago until the plant has been thoroughly renovated.

From a distance to the fascist past, is in Predappio only little trace. At the cemetery of the small town between Bologna and Rimini Benito Mussolini is buried. You descend a few steps, then you stand in front of the sarcophagus. Behind a marble bust of the Duce, on the coffin the Italian flag and always fresh flowers. Before that a bank as in the church, to kneel. Today's admirers were already there - some have written in the condolence book:"Come back!""We need you!""DUX MEA LUX - guide, my light!""Only you can bring Italy back in order!"
The family crypt has become a place of pilgrimage, and in the years dozens of these condolence books have been over packed.

There is a movement called Forza Nuova full of people who like it.. Wait... Aren't there still neo-nazi groups inside Germany? Ye! There are! What is so strange?

A few years ago until the plant has been thoroughly renovated. A critical examination of fascism but does not take place. No historical context, no evidence of the crimes of fascism. Nothing.

Totally false.. Our state owned tv channel did a lot of documentaries over what Fascism have done. During the first years of the Democracy transition cause Yalta conference, Italy fallen under Allies control. Pro catholics party was elected ( suspect of election fraud) and they often collaborated with ex fascist mates to put out the communist or do other bad stuff to blame the communist. It is the "Strategia della tensione" to control the leftis electorate that have been used during nearly 50 years, so fascist were good in the eyes of allies after all. Give a look also to "Operazione Gladio", and you will know better why people were not much interested to the fascist criminals.

I've heard about West Germany critical examination of Nazism...It was very true. If i remember well the it was Devil that moved the germans, right?

I needed one minute to find x artikels about Mussolini and his cult. Thats only a little compilation.

I needed one minute to destroy your arguments u.u

 

[Giob]

King Vittorio Emmanuele national spirit is a joke... There is not such useless figure inside Italy as the King. He was a little man that tried to don't appear in public as much as he can cause he was too short and he didn't like this. How can such man give boost to national unity???

Because the king, as hard it may be to swallow, was a much more important figure than Mussolini ever was or had the hopes to be. Italy was formed by the house of Savoy and the Italians, both soldiers and normal citizens, were still largely more loyal to their monarch than to Baldman, and he perfectly knew that. Even the Army, which has always been presented as an ensemble of Blackshirts and Mussolini lapdogs, was still completely loyal to VEIII

 

[Pippo Franchino]

Because the king, as hard it may be to swallow, was a much more important figure than Mussolini ever was or had the hopes to be. Italy was formed by the house of Savoy and the Italians, both soldiers and normal citizens, were still largely more loyal to their monarch than to Baldman, and he perfectly knew that. Even the Army, which has always been presented as an ensemble of Blackshirts and Mussolini lapdogs, was still completely loyal to VEIII

I know what you mean, but this was just theorically... What i want to say is.. Put the Vittorio Emmanuele as National spirit make me laugh.. Because he have nothing to do with spirit...And he was not that national. Army relied to the King and i'm sure of this too, but , what i want to say is that make the King rise national unity with what he have done during all that time seems just..Well not realistical.

Italy was a crumbling nation as tomylotto said, it would be intriguing something that can bring you to a Civil war if you don't act to distract the people conquering something.
Another National Modifier can be about manpower for example, Italy was growing a lot during those times (due multiple factors).

 

[leeuw]

I think that the two starting national spirits "Vittoria Mutilata" and "King Vittorio Emanuele" are correct. They were not the people spirits, but the spirits supported by the Regime.

About the amalric posts... of course all of us (Italians) know who is Mussolini (ok, maybe it would be more correct to say "all of us above 25 years old ).
Mussolini rated as the second most important historical political person in Italy? I think this can happen only in some right-sided websites. At least, Cavour, Garibaldi and Mazzini should be before him in the list. But it is hard to define him as a "fat idiot" or something like this. Indeed, the Regime made many mistakes some years before and during the war, but in the first ten years of government they were able to recover the post-WW1 destroyed Italian economy (even if it is questionable how they didi it).

 

[Giob]

I know what you mean, but this was just theorically... What i want to say is.. Put the Vittorio Emmanuele as National spirit make me laugh.. Because he have nothing to do with spirit...And he was not that national. Army relied to the King and i'm sure of this too, but , what i want to say is that make the King rise national unity with what he have done during all that time seems just..Well not realistical.

I am by no means saying that Vittorio Emanuele was a strong king, but the only people who were effectively aware of this were A, ministers and high ranking officials and B, us, who have the almost almighty power of "hindsight". At the time, people fully believed in him and this should be reflected with the National Spirit; even obvious displays of weakness like his pathetic inaction during the Matteotti murder could be overlooked due to the complex political environment of the time (and due to Mussolini smartly playing his cards) and even after the Armistice, when the backstabbing and uncaring nature of the government became evident, a large share of the population still supported the king, as shown by the post-war referendum on the Republic.

I totally agree however on the manpower part, as there should be something which gives Italy some sort of boost in manpower; after all, there never was a shortage of soldiers and volunteers for the Regio Esercito.

 

[Ultimate_Hobo]

The problem is that for a player and with hindsight maximum mobilisation is a no-brainer, in which case every game goes ahistorical.

and that is why the focus would be gated behind a level of national unity or some other prerequisites. You cannot mobilize unless you have enough support to do so which would be represented by how much national unity you have. Furthermore, I think its fair to presume every game you play as Italy will go ahistorical just as every game you play as France or China will - nobody is going to actively try to repeat the mistakes those nations made and fail in the same way.

 

[Secret Master]

You say that as if it's easy for a dictator to create growth. History is littered with dictators who failed.

Problem?

You are right, of course. I suppose it also depends on what kind of growth we are talking about. Raw growth of GDP? Increased production of heavy industry with no corresponding increase in consumer goods production? Higher standard of living?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a dictatorship that increased standards of living uniformly during its reign. Some persecuted groups of people, confiscated their wealth, and then provided a higher standard of living for other groups of people.

 

[Loke]

Growing a moustache?

 

[Zaku]

in February.19.2010 in a internet survey, Mussolini was rated as the second most important historical political person in italy.

Yeah because the internet never trolled any online surveys before. I always take these things with a grain of salt.
Just remember the infamous Mountain Dew campaign 4chan raided.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

I just want to make my Italian styled Communist Revolution, install democratic centralism, and ally with Comitern to survive WW2. I already can see some fierce fight of Alpini holding mountains against Wermacht!

ps , help Trosky coup Soviet Union of course

 

[amalric de g.]

Snip...
I needed one minute to destroy your arguments u.u

You destroyed nothing. My points are valid. The tiny difference between Germany and Italy is, we track our criminal nazis, the oldest SS Guy this year was 93, who was prosecuted.

We have 21.000 active Neonazis and right wing guys, we do something against them. Our protection of the Constitution police, tracks them with V-persons and other stuff.
The Italian Forza has 140.000 members, the Ultras 41.000 and so on. The Italian politicians do nearly nothing against this people.

Thats the difference and as i wrote before, in another thread, i lived three years in Italy and my wife is Italian, i know what i´m talking about.