italian ambitions over Austria

[Pippo Franchino]

Here is another source:
"Italian Cowardice in World War II: Myth Versus Reality

I agree with most of these stuffs!

And please show me the mountains in the Po valley, from Venetia straight through to Turin there is no mountain. There are some hills thats it.
The mountains are south of the line of Piacenza to Bologna. Or north from the line Milano to Verona.

Ehm... http://italiano.sismondi.ch/manuale...ali-non-primo-anno/immagini/italiageofi/image
Look that image and think how much they would have been fortified the Carso , or mined entire areas. It would easy spot to defend due the mountains, hills and rough terrain. Very difficult to use panzers there. However they of course need to invade Yugoslavia to access it https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QzqK7TC4inw/maxresdefault.jpg

For your crisis, germany walks into austria, the other states have to respond to this move, so germany is on the initiative, not Italy or France. Or do you think germany would sound a big trumpet and says hello world in three months we invade Austria? Please mobilize first?

Germany was ready to annex Austria, not to fight war... It is not the same stuff ,and is not the same move you can do.

Why should germany need her whole army? Poland Campaign 63 Divisions, Yugoslavia was done with 26 Divisions, Greece 12 Divisions. The Metaxas Line was broken, in the Mountains, guess how many Divisions Germany needed? One Mountain Division and a Battallion of Stug III two days later the Line was broken.

If we assume Italy had all their 1940 Divisions ready in 1938 (73 Army Divs and 9 Border Guards), so we have to assume that germany and france had all their 1940 Divisions ready, thats only fair. So we have 134 german Divisions against 84 French Divisions, 14 Fortress Divisions, 73 Italian Divs plus the 9 Border Guard Divisions.

During Poland campaign they were ready to invade and well organized for it and we know Polish army lacked nearly everything and got crushed by two fronts. During Yugoslavia campaign they have had Italian support, during Greece campaign germans have neither fought. Germans just come across a not guarded border without figh Greeks troops and they encircled the GReek army that wanted to surrender to Germans troops cause they hated the Italian backstabb.

France didn´t wanted to go on the offensiv, their whole plan evolved around the maginot line, germany had around 20 Divs on the French border in 1939. Lets say germany put another 20 Divisions on the Italian border, what will Italy do? Go on the offensive? I think, they would sit on their butt like their french buddies.

I say that Germans would just try to attack italians divisions they would need nearly all their army to attack an holding army because they won't be able to have the support of the tanks and to bliztrkrieg over the lines as i've showed you with the maps. French havnig to face few divisions can push forward or reinforce the Italian lines making the Germans get still more losses.

So germany has the initiative and around 90 Divisions ready to strike where and when they want. Thats game over for the Czechs and Poland. By the way, why would the Czechs and Poland risk a war over Austria?

I've never said that. Probably Germans would annex Czech before risk war with Italy/France trying to annex Austria. But Czechs can make their voice stronger aligning to French positions, as Polish can do. We hardly can know how that can reflect over their positions.

And why should the UK enter the war, because France or Italy wanted another war? Hardly, i think the UK will tell France or Italy, sorry no interest boys.

Why UK joined war when Poland got attacked? Because Germany was expanding against other countries breaking what the victorious power of ww1 have established and because Poland don't let Germans peacefully annex them. That is why UK would join French and Italians against Germans that wanted another war.

The whole assumption germany would invade and annex Austria against the oposition of Italy, France, UK, Poland and Czechia is a no brainer, even Hitler was not dumb enough to try it.

Germans would probably annex Czechs before then they won't get Austria and maybe try to invade Poland.

 

[mbarbaric]

i really enjoy this what if discussion.

it is hard to tell now what would have happened, but it certainly would be interesting to make it possible to oppose anschluss with italy. historically impossible as il Douche was head of Italy but interesting.

i guess it would become stale front until germans dealed with eastern countries and france. then theyz would invade italy through the Po valley. if they would be able to keep britain out of war or make Soviets join in. however Russia and Ucraine were always envisaged as fundamental part of lebensraum so i don't think taking them as ally in offensive was ever viable option.

that would mean that england would have to remain out of conflict and russian front never opened until the situation in west and south are clear and favourable. that would be quite doable for germany. how would go the war on east against russia later that would be really interesting thing to play through and optimal timing for churchill to chime in.

 

[amalric de g.]

Ehm... http://italiano.sismondi.ch/manuale...ali-non-primo-anno/immagini/italiageofi/image
Look that image and think how much they would have been fortified the Carso , or mined entire areas. It would easy spot to defend due the mountains, hills and rough terrain. Very difficult to use panzers there. However they of course need to invade Yugoslavia to access it https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QzqK7TC4inw/maxresdefault.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QzqK7TC4inw/maxresdefault.jpg

Sorry we talked about two different things, i said the interior of Italy and you talked about the border area. Sure breaking through the carso is not easy but do able. I just read a article about the fights in the Metaxas Line and the Maginot Line. But the source is in german.

During Yugoslavia campaign they have had Italian support, during Greece campaign germans have neither fought. Germans just come across a not guarded border without figh Greeks troops and they surrender the GReek army that wanted to surrender to Germans troops cause they hated the Italian backstabb.

What undefended? Sure thats the reason, why germany caught 210.000 greek soldiers and the 2. greek army was surrounded, around Thessaloniki, by the germans and germany fought against 4 Commonwealth Divisions in Greece.
As I wrote in another Thread, germany, even if you try to downplay the role, fought against nearly half of the greek army.

 

[Centerbe]

That is another JOKE, Italy doing a good job on the Alpine French front. Italy launched an attack with over 300000 troops and managed to lose some 6000+ vs French troops who numbered less than 85000 (1/4 of Italy) and lost just over 200 casualties. All this in a period of 15 days, they gained less than 15 square miles.

I agree was not a good performance aniway, but u know attackers have always more casualties than defenders, its normal in all battles.
And was not a planned offensive, only a race for occupy more france territory as possible before the fall.

 

[mbarbaric]

What undefended? Sure thats the reason, why germany caught 210.000 greek soldiers and the 2. greek army was surrounded, around Thessaloniki, by the germans and germany fought against 4 Commonwealth Divisions in Greece.
As I wrote in another Thread, germany, even if you try to downplay the role, fought against nearly half of the greek army.

that is true indeed, there is no point denying, in general, italians were utterly useless in Greece. So useless that after capitulation of italy greek population helped italians in all ways possible despite numerous war crimes commited by them during occupation. they just hated germans' guts for crushing them.

 

[WeissRaben]

i really enjoy this what if discussion.

it is hard to tell now what would have happened, but it certainly would be interesting to make it possible to oppose anschluss with italy. historically impossible as il Douche was head of Italy but interesting.

i guess it would become stale front until germans dealed with eastern countries and france. then theyz would invade italy through the Po valley. if they would be able to keep britain out of war or make Soviets join in. however Russia and Ucraine were always envisaged as fundamental part of lebensraum so i don't think taking them as ally in offensive was ever viable option.

that would mean that england would have to remain out of conflict and russian front never opened until the situation in west and south are clear and favourable. that would be quite doable for germany. how would go the war on east against russia later that would be really interesting thing to play through and optimal timing for churchill to chime in.

It isn't that impossible - Mussolini loathed Hitler, with a passion. Italy started siding with Germany only after having been isolated diplomatically, but that happened mostly around the half of 1936 - and with very preventable reasons (mostly butchering the fallout of the Invasion of Ethiopia). If the fascist envoys to the LoN can - for example - avoid appearing like drunken fratboys every time the envoy from Ethiopia talks, many nations are going to care absolutely zero. After all, France was an imperialist power who would go on being imperialist well into the second half of the 20th century, and Britain... was Britain.

 

[mbarbaric]

agree, nobody held a grudge on il Douche for Africa, it was his european ambitions that were the problem and he couldn't do that without germany, and certainly not agianst germany.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

Sorry we talked about two different things, i said the interior of Italy and you talked about the border area. Sure breaking through the carso is not easy but do able.

It was also fortified position, it's a lot difficult. Italian army is veteran fighting on Carso.

What undefended? Sure thats the reason, why germany caught 210.000 greek soldiers and the 2. greek army was surrounded, around Thessaloniki, by the germans and germany fought against 4 Commonwealth Divisions in Greece.
As I wrote in another Thread, germany, even if you try to downplay the role, fought against nearly half of the greek army.

That is totally false.. Germans crossed border from North and meet only 60,000 Greeks troops that got outnumbered.

Greece army was 410,000 men strong and only 60,000 were on german front. Then Germans were able to use bliztkrieg tactics after metaxas line was broken and gone trhought Greece mainland facing some Allies divisions (4) beacause the bulk of Greek army was fighitng the Italians near Albania. We have also to consider many of the Allies just evacuated the Greece. That is why Germans were capable to encircle ( with Italians and not alone) the Greece army.

The Greeks despite be encircled by Germans and Italians mainly preferred to surrender to Germans because they hated Italians in that moment and didn't expected Italians to attack until the news was no more secret cause Italian incompetence.

that is true indeed, there is no point denying, in general, italians were utterly useless in Greece. So useless that after capitulation of italy greek population helped italians in all ways possible despite numerous war crimes commited by them during occupation. they just hated germans' guts for crushing them.

The Italian offensive was surely an example of the totally ineffective lead of Mussolini ( read what i've said about this before) and it make clear how bad they were prepared for assault... Despite this, Italian army faced the bulk of Greek army and the Germans were able to advance so fast because only few division were left to face their advance.

The italians occupation was the most soft one zone of occupation( just look what germans and bulgarians have done) and the less bloody one, many people was saved by the italians and that is why greeks sided with italians when Armistice went off and that is why many italians helped the Greeks partisans.

 

[mbarbaric]

sure, it was probably easier for them as greek forces were tied down with italians. anyway, however you put it, nazis went to greece to sort things out and that they did.

The italians occupation was the most soft one zone of occupation( just look what germans and bulgarians have done) and the less bloody one, many people was saved by the italians and that is why greeks sided with italians when Armistice went off and that is why many italians helped the Greeks partisans.

this, however, is based on what? Captain Corelli's Mandolin? there is long lasting myth "italiani brava gente" and their "soft occupation" during IIWW. from one side it is fuelled by allies as they didn't want communism to spread over western europe so they practically left the state in hands of fascist and from italian state itself which is lead by those left in power. till late 90s it was prohibited in italy to show movies that depicted italian army in negative light (Lion of the desert was completely forbidden till gheddafi visited italy in 1999 i think, and BBC documentary "Fascist Legacy" was bought by rai in 1989 only to be buried and never shown. after rights of RAI wore off it was shown on LA7 in 2007).

allies appointed badoglio as head of state and actively prevented extradiction of any italian war criminal (hence no nurnberg trial for italians). in same light, italian government never asked any german war criminals to be trialed for attrocities done in italy. and they only trialed nazis in 21st century. quite complex situation as cold war was going on, however, no trials and myths spreading doesn't mean italians didn't comit crimes. they did and there are plenty of evidence. they got lucky with overall political situation and never got to answer the attrocities but taht doesn't make them disappear.

"So che a casa vostra siete dei buoni padri di famiglia, ma qui voi non sarete mai abbastanza ladri, assassini e stupratori" Benito Mussolini ai soldati della Seconda Armata in Dalmazia, 1943.

"I know that at home you are good fathers, but here you will never be enough thiefs, killers and rapists" Mussolini to soldiers of 2nd Army in Dalmatia, 1943

 

[tommylotto]

Dude, read the rules....

 

[amalric de g.]

It was also fortified position, it's a lot difficult. Italian army is veteran fighting on Carso.



That is totally false.. Germans crossed border from North and meet only 60,000 Greeks troops that got outnumbered.

Greece army was 410,000 men strong and only 60,000 were on german front. Then Germans were able to use bliztkrieg tactics after metaxas line was broken and gone trhought Greece mainland facing some Allies divisions (4) beacause the bulk of Greek army was fighitng the Italians near Albania. We have also to consider many of the Allies just evacuated the Greece. That is why Germans were capable to encircle ( with Italians and not alone) the Greece army.

The Greeks despite be encircled by Germans and Italians mainly preferred to surrender to Germans because they hated Italians in that moment and didn't expected Italians to attack until the news was no more secret cause Italian incompetence.



The Italian offensive was surely an example of the totally ineffective lead of Mussolini ( read what i've said about this before) and it make clear how bad they were prepared for assault... Despite this, Italian army faced the bulk of Greek army and the Germans were able to advance so fast because only few division were left to face their advance.

The italians occupation was the most soft one zone of occupation( just look what germans and bulgarians have done) and the less bloody one, many people was saved by the italians and that is why greeks sided with italians when Armistice went off and that is why many italians helped the Greeks partisans.

Im completely aware what we germans did in the second world war and it´s a real shame that we followed such an complete idiot and moron. The only thing Il Duce did for Italy was the law about the free health care, the rest was complete crap and egomaniac behaviour.

With decend leadership and training, the Italian army had performed much better, but thats only my opinion.

About your Carso, i tell you how the Wehrmacht cracked the Metaxas Line and some points in the Maginot Line.
First: Artillery fire and Stukas.
Second: bring up the 88´s, from around 1000 Meters, open pinpoint fire on the artillery and MG Ports, after 2-4 shots the Port is broken and the soldiers behind are dead or wounded.
Third: bring in the Storm Pioneers, they close the Grenade holes with towels and the remaining shooting ports with sandbags and blast the Bunker with a hollow charge or explosives.

Repeate the process for the next bunkers and so on.

And this Map is for the guy who told me the highest Point of the Metaxas Line was on 300 Meters, this is a original german Map from the bunkers of Istibei the height is in meters most bunkers are higher than 1300 Meters.

The battle for Istibei lasted 31 hours, after that time most bunkers looked like this.

You should better read some serious sources about the Fall of Greece and please don´t try to be a fanboy.

This map shows clearly, where the germans attacked from, all arrows are showing the german advance only. On the left side of the map there is the italian front (dottet line), 600.000 italians sad on their butt and the front line didn´t moved much.
So please spare me the myth about germany fought against 60.000 greek soldiers only.

The map is french, by the way.

Second Map, the Front Line is from the 15.04.1941, 9 days after germany attacked greece, there you see the Italian Front moved in 9 Days some kilometers, thats all.

This map is from UK.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

If Italy joins the Allies, I think at least for balance sake, and it would make sense, perhaps Yugoslavia and Greece could join the Axis to protect themselves from Italian aggression, and instead of a Balkan campaign before Barbarossa, Germany can have an Italian campaign.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

Im completely aware what we germans did in the second world war and it´s a real shame that we followed such an complete idiot and moron. The only thing Il Duce did for Italy was the law about the free health care, the rest was complete crap and egomaniac behaviour.

Totally agree with you. The only stuff that i think is that would be horrible if fascist italy joined allies is that they would have be seen as heroes by the Italian population and fascist would have lasted a lot more then they did. That is why Biennio Rosso need to be succesful.

About your Carso, i tell you how the Wehrmacht cracked the Metaxas Line and some points in the Maginot Line.
First: Artillery fire and Stukas.
Second: bring up the 88´s, from around 1000 Meters, open pinpoint fire on the artillery and MG Ports, after 2-4 shots the Port is broken and the soldiers behind are dead or wounded.
Third: bring in the Storm Pioneers, they close the Grenade holes with towels and the remaining shooting ports with sandbags and blast the Bunker with a hollow charge or explosives.

Repeate the process for the next bunkers and so on.

And this Map is for the guy who told me the highest Point of the Metaxas Line was on 300 Meters, this is a original german Map from the bunkers of Istibei the height is in meters most bunkers are higher than 1300 Meters.

You should better read some serious sources about the Fall of Greece and please don´t try to be a fanboy.

I've read about the German invasion but i keep wondering if you have read about the German invasion or just give a look to that...
The man before said Metaxas was 700 m high and greeks mountains are not that high all over the line as the Alps are. However i've just read about that and Germans faced just 60 000 greeks meanwhile Italians where fighitng the Greeks that tried with the help of Brits an attack to finish them off on the Albania border. Germans just taken the greeks not ready and have had better trained troops. The Metaxas Line was capable to take inside 200 000 soldiers but was garrisoned only by 60.000 so that was a thin line compared to the better organized germans forces that overrunned the greek forces. If the bulk of Greek army was over the Metaxas Line Germany would have needed a lot more troops, the myth about the invincible germans make me think there are a lot of fanboys. try to anilize facts and not just put stuff without analize the situation, the equipment , the time and what happened and how it happened.

The tactique Germans used was used ( no airplain was used cause on high mountains is dangerous to use them and cause the planes of ww1 were not that good) during WW1 by Alpini and By the Austrian troops over the mountains, that was common way on mountain warfare.

sure, it was probably easier for them as greek forces were tied down with italians. anyway, however you put it, nazis went to greece to sort things out and that they did.

Nazi were able to win only cause main Greeks army was fighitng italians, otherwise they would have need a lot more troops to do it alone that is what is it, you can put stuff as you want but that is the fact.

This map shows clearly, where the germans attacked from, all arrows are showing the german advance only. On the left side of the map there is the italian front (dottet line), 600.000 italians sad on their butt and the front line didn´t moved much.
So please spare me the myth about germany fought against 60.000 greek soldiers only.

That confirm that they have not met the bulk of Greek army that was nearly inside Albania because the Greeks pushed out of Greece the Italian offensive.

this, however, is based on what? Captain Corelli's Mandolin?

Sometimes i think people are not able to read others comments.. I've said that Italians have had soft occupation policy if you compare it to German and Bulgarian one.
If you give a look to what French and British colonial troops have done during their history( i'm talking about 1850/1960) you will find they were not that democratic, and they were more viuolent then italians but nobody never point that.
I hate fascist so for sure i know (because i've parents who fought that war) what italians have done, but i know that compared to others countries have done is just a candy.

I don't like american "historical" movies so i don't take that movie as source of course.

 

[tommylotto]

Im completely aware what we germans did in the second world war and it´s a real shame that we followed such an complete idiot and moron. The only thing Il Duce did for Italy was the law about the free health care, the rest was complete crap and egomaniac behaviour.

With decend leadership and training, the Italian army had performed much better, but thats only my opinion.

About your Carso, i tell you how the Wehrmacht cracked the Metaxas Line and some points in the Maginot Line.
First: Artillery fire and Stukas.
Second: bring up the 88´s, from around 1000 Meters, open pinpoint fire on the artillery and MG Ports, after 2-4 shots the Port is broken and the soldiers behind are dead or wounded.
Third: bring in the Storm Pioneers, they close the Grenade holes with towels and the remaining shooting ports with sandbags and blast the Bunker with a hollow charge or explosives.

Repeate the process for the next bunkers and so on.

And this Map is for the guy who told me the highest Point of the Metaxas Line was on 300 Meters, this is a original german Map from the bunkers of Istibei the height is in meters most bunkers are higher than 1300 Meters.

The battle for Istibei lasted 31 hours, after that time most bunkers looked like this.

You should better read some serious sources about the Fall of Greece and please don´t try to be a fanboy.

This map shows clearly, where the germans attacked from, all arrows are showing the german advance only. On the left side of the map there is the italian front (dottet line), 600.000 italians sad on their butt and the front line didn´t moved much.
So please spare me the myth about germany fought against 60.000 greek soldiers only.

The map is french, by the way.

Second Map, the Front Line is from the 15.04.1941, 9 days after germany attacked greece, there you see the Italian Front moved in 9 Days some kilometers, thats all.

This map is from UK.

I hate to defend the Italian performance in Greece, where the campaign was executed only slightly worse than it was conceived. However, the Germans had a relative cake walk, because basically the Greeks surrendered their country to the Germans to preserve the argument they won the war against the Italians. Any sane effort to defend Greece would have called for forces from the Eprius army to be shifted to meet the Germans, but that might require the Greeks to retreat in the face of the Italians. They refused to do that (in fact, they attacked), and they allowed themselves to get bagged from behind by the Germans. The British could not believe the Greeks stubborn refusal. From the same wiki you took one of your maps:

General Wilson described this unwillingness to retreat as "the fetishistic doctrine that not a yard of ground should be yielded to the Italians."[121][disputed ] Churchill also criticized the Greek Army commanders for ignoring British advice to abandon Albania and avoid encirclement.[122]

They lost their country, but boy they got a good internet argument for 70 years later.

 

[mbarbaric]

I hate fascist so for sure i know (because i've parents who fought that war) what italians have done, but i know that compared to others countries have done is just a candy.

this isn't topic about english colonialism, although i'd most probably agree there with you. however, talians in africa did as much good as english did. their "candy" occupation is much less candy when you go out of usual state propaganda and go study the facts. now this is getting quite off topic so i'll just stop here.

cheers

 

[Pippo Franchino]

this isn't topic about english colonialism, although i'd most probably agree there with you. however, talians in africa did as much good as english did. their "candy" occupation is much less candy when you go out of usual state propaganda and go study the facts. now this is getting quite off topic so i'll just stop here.

cheers

You just need some logic to understand what i said. Greeks still remember today italians (i've been in Greece) cause they defended many people and in fact Italians were helped by Greek after armistice.

Everybody know italian occupation policy was not the same in croatia iand we know that the yugoslavian attacked italian mainland when they have had the opportunity.

 

[amalric de g.]

I've read about the German invasion but i keep wondering if you have read about the German invasion or just give a look to that...
The man before said Metaxas was 700 m high and greeks mountains are not that high all over the line as the Alps are. However i've just read about that and Germans faced just 60 000 greeks meanwhile Italians where fighitng the Greeks that tried with the help of Brits an attack to finish them off on the Albania border. Germans just taken the greeks not ready and have had better trained troops. The Metaxas Line was capable to take inside 200 000 soldiers but was garrisoned only by 60.000 so that was a thin line compared to the better organized germans forces that overrunned the greek forces. If the bulk of Greek army was over the Metaxas Line Germany would have needed a lot more troops, the myth about the invincible germans make me think there are a lot of fanboys. try to anilize facts and not just put stuff without analize the situation, the equipment , the time and what happened and how it happened.

Nazi were able to win only cause main Greeks army was fighitng italians, otherwise they would have need a lot more troops to do it alone that is what is it, you can put stuff as you want but that is the fact.
That confirm that they have not met the bulk of Greek army that was nearly inside Albania because the Greeks pushed out of Greece the Italian offensive.

First we are talking about WW2 not WW1. But the artillery and Stukas didn´t do much against the bunkers, thats true, thats why the germans brought up the 88´s. Cake walk? What cake walk? The Wehrmacht needed two to three days to penetrate the Metaxas Line, the greek soldiers fought with all they had. General List commanding the 12. army was so impressed from the performance of the greek soldiers, that he refused the capitulation of the defenders and let them go with their flags, but without their weapons.

The 4 Commonwealth Divisions fought against german troops and not Italian troops. You can see it on the map, the Commonwealth Divisions held the eastern front in greece.

I hate to defend the Italian performance in Greece, where the campaign was executed only slightly worse than it was conceived. However, the Germans had a relative cake walk, because basically the Greeks surrendered their country to the Germans to preserve the argument they won the war against the Italians. Any sane effort to defend Greece would have called for forces from the Eprius army to be shifted to meet the Germans, but that might require the Greeks to retreat in the face of the Italians. They refused to do that (in fact, they attacked), and they allowed themselves to get bagged from behind by the Germans. The British could not believe the Greeks stubborn refusal. From the same wiki you took one of your maps:
They lost their country, but boy they got a good internet argument for 70 years later.

Thats partially true, the greek high command gave order to fall back to the shorter broken line, as you can see in my second map. But the commander of the Epirot army refused the order.

But why was the italian army not able to break through the greek line? Thats the point, italy had more aircraft, way more artillery and soldiers and still not able to break through.

And this:
Since all greek army artillery pieces are either from France, Germany or the Czech Republic, England was not able to provide the Greeks with ammunition for it. The remaining stocks in the USA were soon exhausted, so that the british began to equip the Greek army with Italian prey stocks from North Africa and supplied them with ammunition.

Thats the italian advance:
The Italian 9th Army took on 14 April Korça and three days later Erseka. On April 19, the Italians reached the Greek shore of Prespa and on 22 April the 4th Bersaglieri Regiment took the bridge in the border village Perati to cross the border the next day.

The Greeks developed after the Italian occupation of Albania the plan "IB" (Italy-Bulgaria), emanating from a joint attack of Italy and Bulgaria. So the greeks where not unprepared, they didn´t expected the germans but the bulgarian army.

On March 4, the British sent its first convoy of troops under the command of Lieutenant General Henry Maitland Wilson and supplies to Greece. They should, until April 1941, totaling around four divisions, including an armored brigade, a total of about 57,000 soldiers arrived in Greece. These were not intended from the outset to fight the Italians, but for the defense of the expected German attack in conjunction with Greek troops.

And the greek army was 540.000 soldiers strong, not 430.000. The greeks lost 17.500 soldiers, the Commonwealth 12.000 soldiers against the Wehrmacht (germany lost 11.000).

Preciselly the Wehrmacht fought against 6 to 8 greek Divisions (depending on the source) from a total of 21, 4 Commonwealth Divisions and a armoured brigade with 12 German Divisions.

Thats the cake walk.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

First we are talking about WW2 not WW1. But the artillery and Stukas didn´t do much against the bunkers, thats true, thats why the germans brought up the 88´s. Cake walk? What cake walk? The Wehrmacht needed two to three days to penetrate the Metaxas Line, the greek soldiers fought with all they had. General List commanding the 12. army was so impressed from the performance of the greek soldiers, that he refused the capitulation of the defenders and let them go with their flags, but without their weapons.

The 4 Commonwealth Divisions fought against german troops and not Italian troops. You can see it on the map, the Commonwealth Divisions held the eastern front in greece.

On March 4, the British sent its first convoy of troops under the command of Lieutenant General Henry Maitland Wilson and supplies to Greece. They should, until April 1941, totaling around four divisions, including an armored brigade, a total of about 57,000 soldiers arrived in Greece. These were not intended from the outset to fight the Italians, but for the defense of the expected German attack in conjunction with Greek troops.

And the greek army was 540.000 soldiers strong, not 430.000. The greeks lost 17.500 soldiers, the Commonwealth 12.000 soldiers against the Wehrmacht (germany lost 11.000).

Preciselly the Wehrmacht fought against 6 to 8 greek Divisions (depending on the source) from a total of 21, 4 Commonwealth Divisions and a armoured brigade with 12 German Divisions.

Thats the cake walk

The Germany fought The Greeks division first and greeks got outnumbered and defeated , then they faced the british winning several minor battles always outnumbering the british that retreated because the Bulk of Greek army have not retreated back. British have not tanks so they got clashed easly and evacuated greece leaving several battallions without any cover mainly because the bulk of Greek army was already treating for armistice with Germans.
So the Germans have not done that much battle in Greece except overruning Greeks , have better equipment and general better lead, but mainly having better equipment.

Thats partially true, the greek high command gave order to fall back to the shorter broken line, as you can see in my second map. But the commander of the Epirot army refused the order.

That is the truth , is not partyally, that is the complete truth and that is why the Greeks have opposed so little resistence . Also they were starting to lack supplies.

But why was the italian army not able to break through the greek line? Thats the point, italy had more aircraft, way more artillery and soldiers and still not able to break through.

The Italian army was not that efficent attacking as we have seen , it have not naval superiority, his planes were not available cause bad season and used just light tanks during offensive that were broken. They used mainly First world war tactics that would have make them won after long war maybe and only if Brits won't send more troops.

The Greeks developed after the Italian occupation of Albania the plan "IB" (Italy-Bulgaria), emanating from a joint attack of Italy and Bulgaria. So the greeks where not unprepared, they didn´t expected the germans but the bulgarian army.

They were not prepared because they have few men on that front and nearly all their army was on the Italian front.

On March 4, the British sent its first convoy of troops under the command of Lieutenant General Henry Maitland Wilson and supplies to Greece. They should, until April 1941, totaling around four divisions, including an armored brigade, a total of about 57,000 soldiers arrived in Greece. These were not intended from the outset to fight the Italians, but for the defense of the expected German attack in conjunction with Greek troops.

You are talking about 4 divisions with just one light tank division against 12 germans division. They fight a little and then evacuated from greece loosing several troops due their lack of support and slowness and mainly the people left behind the Corinth line were makde prisoners. That explain how over 4 division you have just 900 deads and 13,000 of captives between British/neo zeland troops.

And the greek army was 540.000 soldiers strong, not 430.000. The greeks lost 17.500 soldiers, the Commonwealth 12.000 soldiers against the Wehrmacht (germany lost 11.000).

That is totally false, i don't know if Greece drafted some more soldier and they were 540.000 but British lost 1000 men and have had 13.000 prisoners. Most of Greeks dead was during Italo-Greek war of course. Germany loose 2.000 soldiers because they have not fought that much as i've said.

 

[Centerbe]

i dont like in general long threads for this reason.... it was about Austria why now discussion is about Greece?

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

i dont like in general long threads for this reason.... it was about Austria why now discussion is about Greece?

Austria...
Australia...
Australian Army...
Australian 6th Division in Greece Campaign...
Greece! It's an obvious connection.