italian ambitions over Austria

[Kovax]

So how would it be balanced if Italy was to not join the axis? If it didn't give Germany an advantage in another area then it would ensure the collapse of the faction at the start of 36!

The German Russian alliance option dropps axis allies as well as pushing the allies away from Russia. What would Italy not joining the axis do?

As pointed out by the German general staff to Hitler, if Italy joined the Allies, it would require 5-10 German divisions to hold the passes through the Alps. If Italy joined the Axis, it would take at least 10-12 divisions to stiffen Italy enough to face the UK in Africa.

We know how the latter turned out. I would assume that Italy's participation in the Allies would also make it more difficult to secure the support of the US or several other countries. I can picture it being a much smaller and more localized conflict between UK/FRA/ITA and GER, with most of the world willing to let the troublemakers fight it out among themselves.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Was there really a pact called "Stronza"?

Does "Stronza" mean something i obviously am not aware of?

 

[TheRomanRuler]

As pointed out by the German general staff to Hitler, if Italy joined the Allies, it would require 5-10 German divisions to hold the passes through the Alps. If Italy joined the Axis, it would take at least 10-12 divisions to stiffen Italy enough to face the UK in Africa.

We know how the latter turned out. I would assume that Italy's participation in the Allies would also make it more difficult to secure the support of the US or several other countries. I can picture it being a much smaller and more localized conflict between UK/FRA/ITA and GER, with most of the world willing to let the troublemakers fight it out among themselves.

But if Italy would join allies, all those allied divisions from Africa would land in Italy and attack Germany at the alps. And Italians had one of the best mountain infantry in the world, Alpini. With British support, Germany would need much more than 12 divisions to hold the alps.

 

[WeissRaben]

Does "Stronza" mean something i obviously am not aware of?

"Cunt", more or less, even though the word itself literally means "shit".

This said, the Italo-German border was heavily fortified: if - and this is a big assumption - Mussolini could be convinced to remain on the defensive, the Alps would be a horrible meatgrinder for Germany. Think about the Maginot line, but not outflankable and popped on top of 3km high mountains. The situation in '43 was completely different: the army decapitated itself (the General Staff escaped without giving precise orders), the Germans were already in key positions in Italy, and the country was falling in a civil war that would end in 1945 only on paper (but in truth went on until the early Fifties, eventually petering out).

 

[Pippo Franchino]

That was not Austria vs. Italy but Italy entering a war late against an Austria that not only faced more resistance than expected iagainst Serbia and had to take more losses than imagined against Russia.

And that was Italy unified from just 60 years with many problems inside and with little/no military experience/resources/ same manpower of Austrians. Without say that the advance of Austrian-Hungary was done thank to German intervention on Italian front too, meanwhile french have always had British divisions helping there.

I quote the last two posts.
Italy performed bad during world war 2 because of many problems , but using Italian Army on mainland and on the Alps would have make the Italian Army Concentrated only on one front with an incredible amount of manpower no broken in albania/greece/ethiopia/libya but all over The Alps.

I personally hope i will be able to make revolution inside Italy as communist and Join comitern as soon as possible

 

[Centerbe]

Does "Stronza" mean something i obviously am not aware of?

yes its a terrible italian insult.... ))

As pointed out by the German general staff to Hitler, if Italy joined the Allies, it would require 5-10 German divisions to hold the passes through the Alps. If Italy joined the Axis, it would take at least 10-12 divisions to stiffen Italy enough to face the UK in Africa.

We know how the latter turned out. I would assume that Italy's participation in the Allies would also make it more difficult to secure the support of the US or several other countries. I can picture it being a much smaller and more localized conflict between UK/FRA/ITA and GER, with most of the world willing to let the troublemakers fight it out among themselves.

I agree hold so difficoult mountains passes require only few divisions, but the same story also for Italy.
It would be practical impossible for any who want pass trough that passages.
The combat width there would be so much reduced to render practically useless any great army bonus.
Something similar to 300 spartans at Thermophylae.

Probably both german and italy would stay on defensive stance only in this front.
The difference for Italy its the choice to reinforce France front and attack from there, with his allied.

Doubt aniway if hitler want invade italy he would not use the jugoslavian front, much more accessible and easy...
Is what happened in WW1, the war practically was only on jugoslavian east front.

Why in this ipotetical scenario US would not join allies ?
UK/FRA/ITA vs GER? U forget bulgaria, romania, hungary, japan and others.......they would probably join axis aniway.

 

[WeissRaben]

Doubt aniway if hitler want invade italy he would not use the jugoslavian front, much more accessible and easy...
Is what happened in WW1, the war practically was only on jugoslavian east front.

While the Karst/Carso is indeed easier to cross than the Alps at their watershed, it still is prime defensive ground: in WWI the Isonzo and surrounding highlands were home to some pretty horrible slaughter. While you could probably roll tanks there, it's impossible to control the territory fully, as it is poked by hundreds of miles of caves, natural or man-made. Attacking Italy from anything but the sea would be horrible - by which I don't mean "impossible", but it would probably bleed Germany dry enough that France would smack it effortlessly on their own front.

 

[Centerbe]

But if Italy would join allies, all those allied divisions from Africa would land in Italy and attack Germany at the alps. And Italians had one of the best mountain infantry in the world, Alpini. With British support, Germany would need much more than 12 divisions to hold the alps.

UK had not support Italy there on this small and narrow front, would be italy to support France and UK on the other front.
However, if you try to simulate this scenario in hoi3 u can notice that AI of Italy makes the same choice, and send 3/4 of army on France front.

 

[geogus]

It would turncoat to the Axis once german armies cross the Rubikon?

But seriously from a Balance point of view
- if Italy joins the allies instead of the Axis that would require the UK and France to actually agree on Italys conquest of Abessynia, which in turn should give dissent to both UK and France being democracys,
- it could make Yugoslavia less likely to coup the King and fight the Axis when Italy (with it´s demands for Yugoslavian coastal lands, neighbouring them in Albania and covetting Greece) is part of the allies,
- Italy in the Allies could make a german-USSR alliance more likely (for the mere lack of other members of the Axis),
- Franco and Spain would become more valuable to the Axis with Italy missing.

Maybe greece joins the axis as a defensive move

 

[Pashahlis]

Yea, just like at Piave River and Vittorio Veneto.

And what about the Isonzo Battles?

 

[tommylotto]

"I really dominated the first few rounds," says the fighter, flat on his back on the canvas...

 

[Pippo Franchino]

We Know how First World War ended... If they didn't call For peace Italian army would have reached Wien.

It would be easy For the italians to fortify Carso and considering the Experience over that terrain Too... Consider the mines camps.. And consider Italians fighting For that land performed very well.

Greece in the axis ??

 

[Victor Cortez]

Does "Stronza" mean something i obviously am not aware of?

It's the feminine of stronzo. Without getting into details, it's used similarly to "idiot" in English, but it's rather insulting.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

We Know how First World War ended... If they didn't call For pesce Italian army would have reached Wien.

It would be easy For the italians to fortify Carso and considering the Experience over that terrain Too... Consider the mines camps.. And consider Italias fighting For that land performed very well.

Greece in the axis ??

If Italy as Greece´s rival joins the allies (and those allies look favourable on their plans of justified expansion in the name of containing the axis of evil Greece might not have the luxury of being defended by Britain...

And if Turkey does not join the Axis it might convince Greece to try the Megali Idea again promising them british Cyprus and the (back then) italian Dodekanes...

 

[Pippo Franchino]

If Italy as Greece´s rival joins the allies (and those allies look favourable on their plans of justified expansion in the name of containing the axis of evil Greece might not have the luxury of being defended by Britain...

And if Turkey does not join the Axis it might convince Greece to try the Megali Idea again promising them british Cyprus and the (back then) italian Dodekanes...

Is not all the world concentrated over Germany

It is more likely USSR looking Germany encircled will favour and help the many Comrades inside Turkey and Greece( where there has been a civil war at the end of the war).

And if Italy join Allies is hard that Greece will be still an enemy for Italy, and it is more hard that Greece allies with Turkey that is a nemesi from the start of his history!

 

[FrancescoT]

It's the feminine of stronzo. Without getting into details, it's used similarly to "idiot" in English, but it's rather insulting.

Translate better with "bastard" / "bitch" not "idiot" that in Italian is the same ("idiota").

 

[Centerbe]

If Italy as Greece´s rival joins the allies (and those allies look favourable on their plans of justified expansion in the name of containing the axis of evil Greece might not have the luxury of being defended by Britain...

And if Turkey does not join the Axis it might convince Greece to try the Megali Idea again promising them british Cyprus and the (back then) italian Dodekanes...

I Dont remember Greece as rival of Italy, was only another opportunistic target of fascism.

While the Karst/Carso is indeed easier to cross than the Alps at their watershed, it still is prime defensive ground: in WWI the Isonzo and surrounding highlands were home to some pretty horrible slaughter. While you could probably roll tanks there, it's impossible to control the territory fully, as it is poked by hundreds of miles of caves, natural or man-made. Attacking Italy from anything but the sea would be horrible - by which I don't mean "impossible", but it would probably bleed Germany dry enough that France would smack it effortlessly on their own front.

Not so horrible if another "Cadorna potatohead" is in command.
The overwhelming german superiority in number of vehicles (including airplanes) would nevertheless massacred every Italian industry and division in north regions.
Mountains cannot restrain airplanes.

 

[WeissRaben]

Not so horrible if another "Cadorna potatohead" is in command.
The overwhelming german superiority in number of vehicles (including airplanes) would nevertheless massacred every Italian industry and division in north regions.
Mountains cannot restrain airplanes.

France can, though, just like Britain. An eventual Stresa Italy would be in it together with the Allies, so the Luftwaffe would have ANOTHER air force to contend with. While Italy was not incredible by any mean in warfare, it still had enough to tip the scales. Also - as far as I can remember - the Alpine Wall was surprisingly decently led, so the Cadorna potatohead wasn't there.

 

[jcd000]

I Dont remember Greece as rival of Italy, was only another opportunistic target of fascism.

Greece wouldn't (and couldn't afford to) care about what Italy did, as long as Italy stayed away. But, as with WWI, Axis or Allies was a very valid question for Greece. In WWII this was answered after the Mussolini ultimatum, but if this does not happen, the side is pretty uncertain.
Imo it would all depend on quite a large number of factors (Axis promises vs UK promises, Turkish & Yugoslavian stance, etc.).
Also, afaiu if everything else bar the ultimatum went historically (=no axis aggression against Greece), the most possible route would be neutrality.
Same if there is a war in Europe but not in the Balkans.

 

[Centerbe]

France can, though, just like Britain. An eventual Stresa Italy would be in it together with the Allies, so the Luftwaffe would have ANOTHER air force to contend with. While Italy was not incredible by any mean in warfare, it still had enough to tip the scales. Also - as far as I can remember - the Alpine Wall was surprisingly decently led, so the Cadorna potatohead wasn't there.

Alpine wall wall was decent defense line, probably not articulated as Maginot but with the bonus of an high mountains barrier.
80% of the structures was virtually invulnerable from air. But its not possible entrench an entire army inside bunkers and rock caves.
Factories in north Italy was not invulnerable and the same an army deployed on field.
Germany would probably opt for a strategic air war. The same strategy used for UK.

Greece wouldn't (and couldn't afford to) care about what Italy did, as long as Italy stayed away. But, as with WWI, Axis or Allies was a very valid question for Greece. In WWII this was answered after the Mussolini ultimatum, but if this does not happen, the side is pretty uncertain.
Imo it would all depend on quite a large number of factors (Axis promises vs UK promises, Turkish & Yugoslavian stance, etc.).
Also, afaiu if everything else bar the ultimatum went historically (=no axis aggression against Greece), the most possible route would be neutrality.
Same if there is a war in Europe but not in the Balkans.

Apart from what the Balkan countries and Greece had decided, I'm not sure Hitler would waive a german access into Mediterranean Sea.
Probably Jugoslavia and Greece would be invaded same, and Italy would have another front to defend.
Than Greece (with this assumption) would however sided with the Allies.