italian ambitions over Austria

[geogus]

Pre war Mussolini, being Mussolini, had fever dreams and imagined Austria was under Italy sphere of influence.

This almost caused war against Germany, that backed off her first annexation attemp, and even in 38 hitler feared war with italy.

I realize its maybe too late late for that, give the game is near release, but, if I'm not mistaken, the italian focus tree does not have am option for italy to defend its right over austria and maybe keep the old entente alliance alive, holding the stronza front pact.

Shouldnt this path be included in italy focus? Maybe its a issue for future DLCs or mods.

 

[Victor Cortez]

Was there really a pact called "Stronza"?

 

[Tus3]

Well, It's actually called the "Stresa Front"

 

[Centerbe]

Pre war Mussolini, being Mussolini, had fever dreams and imagined Austria was under Italy sphere of influence.

This almost caused war against Germany, that backed off her first annexation attemp, and even in 38 hitler feared war with italy.

I realize its maybe too late late for that, give the game is near release, but, if I'm not mistaken, the italian focus tree does not have am option for italy to defend its right over austria and maybe keep the old entente alliance alive, holding the stronza front pact.

Shouldnt this path be included in italy focus? Maybe its a issue for future DLCs or mods.

It was just stated by designers italian posision in the 36 scenario have just broke with allies and practically joined the axis cause.
In focus tree there is no trace of austrian option, or any anti german idea. Unless there has been no focus changes from italy's DD.
However, fearing the war with Germany the italian border was heavily fortified in the years between 1931 and 1940.
Also of this there's no trace in the game.

Was there really a pact called "Stronza"?

Yes there was treaty, but was named "Sresa". Stresa front was a treaty between France and Italy for defend this countries against the german expansionism. Historically falled after the game start date, 6 jan Italy removed any objections for a german annexation of Austria, and 22 feb for remitalizzation of Rhineland.

 

[Sharp163]

Germany should just let Italy invade Austria, and then sit back and watch the Austrians kick their butts

 

[Kovax]

Germany should just let Italy invade Austria, and then sit back and watch the Austrians kick their butts

That would have been difficult without an army. After WWI, Austria, Hungary, and Germany were all forbidden to have more than a token army, although Germany's allowed force was considerably larger than the others, and Germany began more blatantly defying the terms of the armistice earlier, soon after Hitler came to power. Austria was really not permitted to have anything more than what could be considered "internal security" forces, and would have offered virtually no opposition to an armed invasion at that date. Both Austria and Hungary realized that war was imminent, and Austria had already politically deflected one attempt at intimidation by Germany, with Italy's assistance. Minimal and often clandestine moves were made to try to prepare, but the terms of the armistice made it virtually impossible, and France (along with the Little Entente) made it clear that violation of the terms by either Austria or Hungary was unacceptable, and would provoke a response. When Hitler struck whatever deal he made with Mussolini and Italy no longer opposed German ambitions in Austria, that effectively left the country defenseless.

If it re-armed to protect itself, France and its allies would consider that an act of war. If it didn't re-arm, Germany or Italy would occupy and/or annex it. Worst case scenario: invasion by Italy or Germany, and then a declaration of war by France for trying to defend itself.

 

[tommylotto]

Germany should just let Italy invade Austria, and then sit back and watch the Austrians kick their butts

Yea, just like at Piave River and Vittorio Veneto.

As Centerbe says, at game start, the game presumes that Italy has irrevocably broken with the allies over Ethiopia and is moving towards Hitler's orbit. So, Italy will not resist the Anschulss.

It would have been interesting if Italy started with an event concerning the Hoare Laval Pact, which was a British and French initiative to peacefully resolve the Ethiopian war. It became public knowledge in late December 1935, just days before game start, and was repudiated by the allies due to the backlash from the press. If the allied diplomats stood up to the press and stood by the offer, the war could have been avoided and maybe Italy would not have been sent towards Germany. Then, maybe Italy might have stood up to Germany and prevent the Anschluss. But that will have to wait for a modded NF tree.

 

[draske]

I think that would bring a nice flavour to the game. As Italian player you probably want to improve ties with Germany so not go for this, but it would be nice that the option is there.
For France loosing allies in 1936 is hardly modelled. For example, after the Rheinland occupation, Belgium ended their collective defence pact with France. The poor French defences on the Belgium border where probably one of the results of the existence of such treaty before. Also the Locarno treaty and the Soviet - Franco mutual assistance treaty are not modelled.

 

[Sharp163]

That would have been difficult without an army. After WWI, Austria, Hungary, and Germany were all forbidden to have more than a token army, although Germany's allowed force was considerably larger than the others, and Germany began more blatantly defying the terms of the armistice earlier, soon after Hitler came to power. Austria was really not permitted to have anything more than what could be considered "internal security" forces, and would have offered virtually no opposition to an armed invasion at that date. Both Austria and Hungary realized that war was imminent, and Austria had already politically deflected one attempt at intimidation by Germany, with Italy's assistance. Minimal and often clandestine moves were made to try to prepare, but the terms of the armistice made it virtually impossible, and France (along with the Little Entente) made it clear that violation of the terms by either Austria or Hungary was unacceptable, and would provoke a response. When Hitler struck whatever deal he made with Mussolini and Italy no longer opposed German ambitions in Austria, that effectively left the country defenseless.

If it re-armed to protect itself, France and its allies would consider that an act of war. If it didn't re-arm, Germany or Italy would occupy and/or annex it. Worst case scenario: invasion by Italy or Germany, and then a declaration of war by France for trying to defend itself.

Yea, just like at Piave River and Vittorio Veneto.

As Centerbe says, at game start, the game presumes that Italy has irrevocably broken with the allies over Ethiopia and is moving towards Hitler's orbit. So, Italy will not resist the Anschulss.

It would have been interesting if Italy started with an event concerning the Hoare Laval Pact, which was a British and French initiative to peacefully resolve the Ethiopian war. It became public knowledge in late December 1935, just days before game start, and was repudiated by the allies due to the backlash from the press. If the allied diplomats stood up to the press and stood by the offer, the war could have been avoided and maybe Italy would not have been sent towards Germany. Then, maybe Italy might have stood up to Germany and prevent the Anschluss. But that will have to wait for a modded NF tree.

It was a joke...

 

[WeissRaben]

Yea, just like at Piave River and Vittorio Veneto.

As Centerbe says, at game start, the game presumes that Italy has irrevocably broken with the allies over Ethiopia and is moving towards Hitler's orbit. So, Italy will not resist the Anschulss.

It would have been interesting if Italy started with an event concerning the Hoare Laval Pact, which was a British and French initiative to peacefully resolve the Ethiopian war. It became public knowledge in late December 1935, just days before game start, and was repudiated by the allies due to the backlash from the press. If the allied diplomats stood up to the press and stood by the offer, the war could have been avoided and maybe Italy would not have been sent towards Germany. Then, maybe Italy might have stood up to Germany and prevent the Anschluss. But that will have to wait for a modded NF tree.

Absolutely. I stated (probably in the Italy DD) that a tree starting with

SAVE THE STRESA FRONT <!> AN EMPIRE OF SAND

would have probably been the best way to go with it. But eh, they decided to cut away months of political evolution (in a game whose minor tick is a hour), and bound Italy to a decision that could have well not come to be.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Yea, just like at Piave River and Vittorio Veneto.

That was not Austria vs. Italy but Italy entering a war late against an Austria that not only faced more resistance than expected iagainst Serbia and had to take more losses than imagined against Russia.

As Centerbe says, at game start, the game presumes that Italy has irrevocably broken with the allies over Ethiopia and is moving towards Hitler's orbit. So, Italy will not resist the Anschulss.

Anschluß (using the spelling before the reform 1996). And actually Italy in January 1936 only agreed that Austria would become a satellite state of Germany but stayed independant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stresa_Front#Results

It would have been interesting if Italy started with an event concerning the Hoare Laval Pact, which was a British and French initiative to peacefully resolve the Ethiopian war. It became public knowledge in late December 1935, just days before game start, and was repudiated by the allies due to the backlash from the press. If the allied diplomats stood up to the press and stood by the offer, the war could have been avoided and maybe Italy would not have been sent towards Germany. Then, maybe Italy might have stood up to Germany and prevent the Anschluss. But that will have to wait for a modded NF tree.

Abessynia was not the only reason for the end of the Stresa Front. In which ironically Mussoline was the hardliner and where Britain and France did not want to invade Germany early to stop them rearming and enlarging their army beyond the Versailles limit. The Anglo-Germany naval agreement that betrayed the Versailles treaty showed that Britain itself agreed to re-negotiate at least some parts of Versailles and Mussolini felt that he could not rely on them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stresa_Front#Results

 

[Kolaris]

This is a major concern of mine, that a lot of the early "what if" scenarios are being ignored to ensure the historical outbreak of the war.

 

[Centerbe]

Germany should just let Italy invade Austria, and then sit back and watch the Austrians kick their butts

umm...im not sure. Italy had never intenction to invade Austria.
The idea was ensure the presence of Austria as a buffer state against Germany.
The concerns of Mussolini were defensive not offensive, for this ordered the construction of 1800Km of bunkers.
Stresa was a treaty for ensure the freedom of Austria, not to share his pieces. France would never agree any italian occupation of Austria.
Austria was really weak aniway after WW1, was'nt the powerful empire of 1915.

This is a major concern of mine, that a lot of the early "what if" scenarios are being ignored to ensure the historical outbreak of the war.

Agree, odd is the total absence of this "what if" only for some countries.
With France focus is possible join axis, with Germany is possible alliance with Russia, but not for italy defend the Stresa front.

* from France focus tree

 

[Bananabus]

Remember that italy does not start in the axis.If France uses its "woo Italy" focus then it does not seem unreasonable that italy could claim austria after winning against germany.

 

[ArcandSpark]

So how would it be balanced if Italy was to not join the axis? If it didn't give Germany an advantage in another area then it would ensure the collapse of the faction at the start of 36!

The German Russian alliance option dropps axis allies as well as pushing the allies away from Russia. What would Italy not joining the axis do?

 

[Centerbe]

Abessynia was not the only reason for the end of the Stresa Front. In which ironically Mussoline was the hardliner and where Britain and France did not want to invade Germany early to stop them rearming and enlarging their army beyond the Versailles limit. The Anglo-Germany naval agreement that betrayed the Versailles treaty showed that Britain itself agreed to re-negotiate at least some parts of Versailles and Mussolini felt that he could not rely on them

Yep, true....

Remember that italy does not start in the axis.If France uses its "woo Italy" focus then it does not seem unreasonable that italy could claim austria after winning against germany.

Do not start with axis in 36, but by game mechanic AI its practically forced aniway to go there.

So how would it be balanced if Italy was to not join the axis? If it didn't give Germany an advantage in another area then it would ensure the collapse of the faction at the start of 36!

The German Russian alliance option dropps axis allies as well as pushing the allies away from Russia. What would Italy not joining the axis do?

I doubt Germany faction would fall in case italy dont join them....
Italy was not so precious ally for germany.

In few time Italy would capitulate under german force, and would be totally in german control.
As in fact it happened later....

With the stresa front probably war would start early. Italy and france could declare war against Germany in 38.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

So how would it be balanced if Italy was to not join the axis? If it didn't give Germany an advantage in another area then it would ensure the collapse of the faction at the start of 36!

The German Russian alliance option dropps axis allies as well as pushing the allies away from Russia. What would Italy not joining the axis do?

It would turncoat to the Axis once german armies cross the Rubikon?

But seriously from a Balance point of view
- if Italy joins the allies instead of the Axis that would require the UK and France to actually agree on Italys conquest of Abessynia, which in turn should give dissent to both UK and France being democracys,
- it could make Yugoslavia less likely to coup the King and fight the Axis when Italy (with it´s demands for Yugoslavian coastal lands, neighbouring them in Albania and covetting Greece) is part of the allies,
- Italy in the Allies could make a german-USSR alliance more likely (for the mere lack of other members of the Axis),
- Franco and Spain would become more valuable to the Axis with Italy missing.

 

[Sharp163]

umm...im not sure. Italy had never intenction to invade Austria.
The idea was ensure the presence of Austria as a buffer state against Germany.
The concerns of Mussolini were defensive not offensive, for this ordered the construction of 1800Km of bunkers.
Stresa was a treaty for ensure the freedom of Austria, not to share his pieces. France would never agree any italian occupation of Austria.
Austria was really weak aniway after WW1, was'nt the powerful empire of 1915.



Agree, odd is the total absence of this "what if" only for some countries.
With France focus is possible join axis, with Germany is possible alliance with Russia, but not for italy defend the Stresa front.

* from France focus tree

It was a joke...

 

[Centerbe]

I realized it was a joke... ))

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Was there really a pact called "Stronza"?

A pact against a cruel woman