Italia and other affairs

[th3freakie]

Greetings m'lads. I have some questions for ye, regarding my Duke of Lombardy game(s). Hope you can help.

1) When you start a Duchy of Lombardy game in 1066, your son and heir doesn't have your last name. What gives?

2) In my first attempt at this start, I managed to get rid of that guy and continue the d'Este dynasty, up to a point in the mid XII century when they were, by far, the most powerful Dukes of Europe, with 4 Duke titles and over 13 vassals, but when the 3rd Generation came to rule, the combined power of their ineptitude and tarnished reputation caused non-stop wars of independence.

Are there any rules regarding how to best deal with civil war, besides the classic whack-a-mole?

3) I gave up on that disaster, mostly because it was all lost (Genova's armies trashed any hopes of maintaining any vassals at all) and it was too frustrating to lose it all at 4 provs away from usurping King of Italy, but also because of other newbie moves I had done. So I started a Lombardy game in 1066 again.

Now I wonder - what's the best way to go for the KoI? And how best to deal with Genova? Grabbing their title costs a bloody fortune in prestige, but being a Republic I can't marry my way into them either. Plus they're a "duke level" realm, so I can't vassalize in some other way. Am I missing something here?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

1) AFAIK your eldest son is Guelph Welf, but he is not your heir, that is your 2nd son who is named d'Este.

2) Force-vassalize your rebellious vassals and at the same time give up your claims on their titles. That should bring your reputation back to honourable very quick. You can safely give up your claim, cause as soon as they rebel again you get the claim back.


3) A gamey tactic is to sent your son and heir to the republic of Genova. If your son has a good martial rating he will be first in line to inherit the republic (republics use elective law and AFAIK Genova doesn't have vassals, right ?). If you see your heir listed as the heir to the republic of Genova, kill the current governor and then wait for your own current ruler to die.

Then your heir will bring the, then 'duchy of Genoa' into your realm.

 

[th3freakie]

1) AFAIK your eldest son is Guelph Welf, but he is not your heir, that is your 2nd son who is named d'Este.

Hm... Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly because of the changes in laws or so.

2) Force-vassalize your rebellious vassals and at the same time give up your claims on their titles. That should bring your reputation back to honourable very quick. You can safely give up your claim, cause as soon as they rebel again you get the claim back.

Ah yes, give up the claim, that was the part I was forgeting! o
Would do little good anyway, since the rep is only -3.6 while they're all losing some 5% loyalty a month.

3) A gamey tactic is to sent your son and heir to the republic of Genova. If your son has a good martial rating he will be first in line to inherit the republic (republics use elective law and AFAIK Genova doesn't have vassals, right ?). If you see your heir listed as the heir to the republic of Genova, kill the current governor and then wait for your own current ruler to die.

Genova has Nice as a bishopric in my game at least, and I believe they start off with it. But that is indeed a good tactic, if gamey.

I'll still prefer to bring them down sometime by force of arms.

And the KoI sure is a large Kingdom...

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Hm... Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly because of the changes in laws or so.


Ah yes, give up the claim, that was the part I was forgeting! o
Would do little good anyway, since the rep is only -3.6 while they're all losing some 5% loyalty a month.

For every claim you give up the monthly loyalty modifier will change with 0.4 per month. So giving up 9 claims should bring the loyalty loss due to reputation back to zero.

Genova has Nice as a bishopric in my game at least, and I believe they start off with it. But that is indeed a good tactic, if gamey.

I'll still prefer to bring them down sometime by force of arms.

And the KoI sure is a large Kingdom...

Bishoprics can't inherit under elective law, so the strategy is viable.

 

[th3freakie]

For every claim you give up the monthly loyalty modifier will change with 0.4 per month. So giving up 9 claims should bring the loyalty loss due to reputation back to zero.

Indeed, and I shall make use of this once it is worth it. But I won't bother with that particular game anymore, since quite honestly, my ruler deserved it by then. He had some seriously nasty traits too.

 

[unmerged(70421)]

1) AFAIK your eldest son is Guelph Welf, but he is not your heir, that is your 2nd son who is named d'Este.

i seem to remember Guelph Welf being the designated heir as well, which was why i had to kill him off (kinslayer )

other than that, Lombardia is probably the same as any other peripheral HRE state, be opportunistic and try to pick off any counts/dukes that declare independnece and are busy fighting his former liege. Provence and sicily can also be nice friends as well they do get involved in italian affairs and you get a free DOW if you're allied when they DOW.

 

[Hasimir Fenring]

3) A gamey tactic is to sent your son and heir to the republic of Genova. If your son has a good martial rating he will be first in line to inherit the republic (republics use elective law and AFAIK Genova doesn't have vassals, right ?). If you see your heir listed as the heir to the republic of Genova, kill the current governor and then wait for your own current ruler to die.

Then your heir will bring the, then 'duchy of Genoa' into your realm.

I already tried this gamey tactic but it doesn't work with the "fosterling system" since a fosterling can't inherit in an elective court:when the governor/bishop is assassinated by the player, the fosterling automatically returns to his father court ...

Try something else

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

In an unmodded game, Lombardy starts with Elective law, so that, Fulco, the 2nd son of the ruler who is count of Grisons (and thus a vassal of his father, the duke) will be the heir to Azzo d'Este.

 

[unmerged(133776)]

... you get a free DOW if you're allied when they DOW.

Sorry to go off-topic, but this intrigues me.

The only benefit i can think of that is valid is, you had a peace-treaty with that enemy and this would allow you to break it with no prestige loss. What are the other "gamey" benefits? Their allies won't DOW on you? Their Liege won't DOW on you? Your Liege won't join in and steal those enemy counties? No claims needed to capture their counties? Other benefits?

 

[unmerged(70421)]

you then don't need a claim to start the war. you can win it, force vassalise and then revoke if you want to. it's a handy way of expanding early on when you still lack the prestige to grab claims.

 

[Kordian]

I already tried this gamey tactic but it doesn't work with the "fosterling system" since a fosterling can't inherit in an elective court:when the governor/bishop is assassinated by the player, the fosterling automatically returns to his father court ...

Try something else

Uhm...
I dunno. In my last game with Kingdom of Finland I menaged to get Teutonic Order's title by sending my first-born son as a fosterling. He was elected Grand Master, then his father died so he became King of Finland and Teutonic Order. Anyway I think there are some triggered IA events that aim to kill underage Grand Masters: to keep alive my son I had to save/load many times until he became 16 (I know it's a sort of cheat but I never managed to get this title and I was curious to see what it would happen sending a child asforsterling to Knight Orders)

 

[unmerged(75409)]

you then don't need a claim to start the war. you can win it, force vassalise and then revoke if you want to. it's a handy way of expanding early on when you still lack the prestige to grab claims.

the problem with force-vassalization is, once you peace out your new vassal is still at war with the other enemies, and usually they conquer and annex him. Not much fun in that.

 

[th3freakie]

Since we're talking alliances, why is it that no nearby Duchy/kingdom will ever want to ally with my Lombardia, but Byzantium and Normandy bloody love me?

 

[unmerged(133776)]

the problem with force-vassalization is, once you peace out your new vassal is still at war with the other enemies, and usually they conquer and annex him. Not much fun in that.

Of course, i can see it not working or right in every case. But, there are always exceptions/juicy targets that it would be perfect for. A rich county that you'd love to have in your demesne. <very evil grin>

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I already tried this gamey tactic but it doesn't work with the "fosterling system" since a fosterling can't inherit in an elective court:when the governor/bishop is assassinated by the player, the fosterling automatically returns to his father court ...

Try something else

I have seen it happen to Venice several times and I have seen it reported on this forum by other people.

 

[saskganesh]

the problem with force-vassalization is, once you peace out your new vassal is still at war with the other enemies, and usually they conquer and annex him. Not much fun in that.

but then you get a claim, and you can retake at your convenience, and replace with a more compatable cultured ruler of possibly greater loyalty. something for nothing, take it.

 

[unmerged(70421)]

but then you get a claim, and you can retake at your convenience, and replace with a more compatable cultured ruler of possibly greater loyalty. something for nothing, take it.

this. if you win the war, the worst you can do is end up with a claim.