It there much point in using armored cars?

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ecpgieicg

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Let's assume that sales wouldn't be affected in either direction.

Why would you benefit from added complexity like ammunitions production?

A very odd assumption in this context, but I'm game. Let's dance.

Because let's not assume sales will be the same.

There is always a divide between those want immersion and have a high tolerance to complexity as a cost vs those appreciates immersion but prefers simplicity. Even if you wish to entertain the notion that we are all born similar in potential in some way, the divide is still fundamental. Because a major cause for the divide is how many games players have experienced and also how much history and other real life experience that provides inspirations for in-game performance. Experience varies among players with a general divide between new and old players in the genre.

Smooth UI bridges the divide. But there are always features and mechanics that for certainty adds immersion but for certainty deters players due to added complexity. Fuel is such an example. And I also have reservation about the rest of the resource system.

By immersion, I don't mean cosmetic flavor -- perhaps what one would first notice in the more diverse production lines as found in BICE which is closer to history. Although cosmetic flavor still matters. (And I would argue the cosmetic production diversity is the least important changes BICE brings to land combat but instead the production changes bring forth other changes in the game mechanics and game balance which in turns adds significant immersion.)

By immersion, I mean actually functioning gameplay that mirrors a theme of history among the strategic and military situations back in WWII. Up until recently (and I suspect 1.8/1.9 is no different), a French campaign is trivialized after the initial defense. A few versions ago, that defense was truly a challenge (and may be still). What was the player rewarded with after defeating the initial challenge? A trivialized rest of campaign because Germany would run out of manpower. Something in the game mechanics and AI caused the trivialization of French campaign. USSR campaigns faced the same issue. And of course, there is the well known case of trivialized German campaign in Operation Barbarossa. In the German case, mods takes advantage of the existing supply system to make the Operation Barbarossa more playable. The change though arguably makes those mods less approachable. And that illustrates the player divide already even when the same mechanics is tweaked differently -- much less the incorporation of new features and changes to new mechanics.

Yet another simple example is the 80+40 per flank combat width in vanilla HOI4 vs 75 + 25 per flank in BICE. 80 + 40 is probably simpler. The malformed gameplay it creates and the would-be immersion and balance it takes away goes without saying.

It's already there in the form of major mods like BICE or its streamlined cousin Total War or the even less complex Hearts of Oak, all of which are vastly more complex than vanilla to different degrees.

Having BICE and the like doesn't mean they are perfect either. They don't solve all cases where a playthrough is trivialized. For example, the current supply system means that by seiging Moscow but not taking it, all remaining USSR troops lose supply. Mods can't change that. The knowledge of that + the occasions when a player naturally finds themselves in a position to do so trivializes a portion of Operation Barbarossa. Trivialized gameplay = reduced immersion. Any improved supply system will bring more immersion if it is able to remedy the various current problems (on top of reflecting more themes of history). But in all likelihood, ready improvements are more complex and less approachable.

Another example of what mods don't fix is the resource system that I complained about here.

Let's not get loss on the point because examples are numerous and easy to find. The point is there are aspects of the game that are not working for players who have no issue quicktly understanding the existing mechanics -- in that they significantly diminish immersion; and because existing mechanics are insufficient in some way. A pre-requisite here is that the players are able to realize those flaws quickly and only afterwards get a diminished experience. However, the game as is already has too much for other players -- like those described in this thread that may be just ok without MTG ship design/refit system and without la Resistance's spy system.

Meanwhile, modding fixes some aspects but not all. Mods are restricted by the base game and by the design intentions of devs. They ofc also suffer from the lack of QA.

HENCE, the whole idea of dual track design from the get go. Design to the fullest. Offer a simplified version. For the designs that can't make into base game even with the "full" version, leave them as moddable features.

The premise is that this approach makes a better game -- thus creates a better experience for the devs, which PDX does care -- and it reaches a greater audience while helping to transition the unitiated players further into the niche, which in turn increases sales down the road.

And yes, you can make these mechanics rules you can toggle, but that creates an added burden on testing and quality control and AI, because you now have 50 more game states to test.

Actually there are already multiple states to test inherent to the expansion scheme that PDX follows. That is the business model as a whole and will be difficult to change. In PDX games, devs will have their "main" version in mind and focus QA/testing towards that. (Main probably being that with all DLCs.)

They will probably try to make the underlying game as modularized as possible, especially with the AI. But there is a limit already: if an expansion involves a large amount of changes and concurrently they are unable to package all fundamental changes to the free half, they create a major branching point; and an expansion can ofc also be hard to separate from the game without it.

Currently with HOI4, we see a clear attempt to mitigate branching due to the above. That has resulted in DLCs that are more cosmetic than not. And it also probably contributed to how little improvements the game made to game balance and AI relatively speaking.

The point here is a dual track design from the get go does not changes the above. Not better. Not worse.
 
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@Secret Master @ecpgieicg
I just discovered a very interesting overhaul mod called "World Ablaze" with some intriguing features.

--> No more snowballing of industry:
- Each CIC consumes 1 steel
- Each Steel Mill consumes 20 coal and 25 iron
- Each Synthetic Factory consumes 60 coal...

There are plenty of other mechanisms like national tank tech trees, industrial mobilization in peace time lowering war support and increasing CIC cost.

Only 30 minutes in, so I can't tell if that works as intended. It's amazing though how modders find ways to completely alter the general game mechanisms.

 
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ecpgieicg

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@Secret Master @ecpgieicg
I just discovered a very interesting overhaul mod called "World Ablaze" with some intriguing features.

--> No more snowballing of industry:
- Each CIC consumes 1 steel
- Each Steel Mill consumes 20 coal and 25 iron
- Each Synthetic Factory consumes 60 coal...

There are plenty of other mechanisms like national tank tech trees, industrial mobilization in peace time lowering war support and increasing CIC cost.

Only 30 minutes in, so I can't tell if that works as intended. It's amazing though how modders find ways to completely alter the general game mechanisms.

Thanks for the link!!
 

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Actually there are already multiple states to test inherent to the expansion scheme that PDX follows.

I know. But adding more game states to the existing ones carries consequences.

Keep in mind that we already get complaints from players who don't own DLC that their version of the game has glaring problems.
 

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--> No more snowballing of industry:
- Each CIC consumes 1 steel
- Each Steel Mill consumes 20 coal and 25 iron
- Each Synthetic Factory consumes 60 coal...

I do find it irritating that synthetic plants don't use resources, but I understand why CIC does not from a game design perspective. If CIC required steel, it could create weird outcomes during strategic bombing campaigns where it would be possible to basically prevent rebuilding efforts. With no resource inputs for CIC, the bare minimum CIC can always do is repair stuff even if its not logical to build more stuff. Put another way, if I am short steel due to bombing/convoy raiding, I can still use CIC to repair things, even if it would be pointless to build more MIC, since there's no resources to run more MIC.

The "free" aspect of synthetic plants is partially what makes them so powerful for Germany. But without adding coal as a resource (or energy), I'm not sure how to fix it. And adding coal (or energy) as a resource would be a big overhaul of the game's economy.
 
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HENCE, the whole idea of dual track design from the get go. Design to the fullest. Offer a simplified version. For the designs that can't make into base game even with the "full" version, leave them as moddable features.

Oh how I wish!!! this was the track they took. I can understand how in the beginning the developers would not have much incentive to do this dual track and modular design. Back then they did not know how large their audience would be and most likely had little idea how long the interest would last.

Now that they know the interest in this market is long lasting, maybe they could have more confidence to begin building in such a dual track system. Developers building a game that is as complicated as HOI4 should consider such a system. In these days without tutorials and manuals it would help the player to digest the game in smaller bites.

If most players are playing at level 1 now, then start the game off with default selections and some things turned off to reduce complications and reduce the learning curve. This satisfy's this player-base's needs, while making it much easier for new players to try out the game, since it starts off less complicated.

Those who can, will eventually begin tinkering with those default selections and digest the mechanics at their own pace, but during the process, still able to enjoy playing a full game to completion. Right now, I suspect new players find it difficult to finish a game and it will most likely only get worse over time as more complexities are added. A dual track system may be needed to just attract new people, teach existing players the mechanics at a pace fun to them, and to challenge those who really enjoy the game and its potential.
 

ecpgieicg

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I do find it irritating that synthetic plants don't use resources, but I understand why CIC does not from a game design perspective. If CIC required steel, it could create weird outcomes during strategic bombing campaigns where it would be possible to basically prevent rebuilding efforts. With no resource inputs for CIC, the bare minimum CIC can always do is repair stuff even if its not logical to build more stuff. Put another way, if I am short steel due to bombing/convoy raiding, I can still use CIC to repair things, even if it would be pointless to build more MIC, since there's no resources to run more MIC.

The "free" aspect of synthetic plants is partially what makes them so powerful for Germany. But without adding coal as a resource (or energy), I'm not sure how to fix it. And adding coal (or energy) as a resource would be a big overhaul of the game's economy.

Actually, coal was one of the only things that Germany found autarky possible.

Unlike differentiating fuels into subtypes to include diesel for example, which has implications on weapons and other things.

I wouldn't mind the resource system starting with an output of raw that converts to a stockpile of base materials. There are things the resource system can change to add more immersion. I don't think coal is one of them. Having said that, I don't want to eliminate/abstract before laying out all possibilities. If we were the devs that is.
 

ecpgieicg

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If most players are playing at level 1 now, then start the game off with default selections and some things turned off to reduce complications and reduce the learning curve. This satisfy's this player-base's needs, while making it much easier for new players to try out the game, since it starts off less complicated.

Those who can, will eventually begin tinkering with those default selections and digest the mechanics at their own pace, but during the process, still able to enjoy playing a full game to completion. Right now, I suspect new players find it difficult to finish a game and it will most likely only get worse over time as more complexities are added. A dual track system may be needed to just attract new people, teach existing players the mechanics at a pace fun to them, and to challenge those who really enjoy the game and its potential.

Indeed, that is an important piece of data to mention.

Data does suggest a majority of player base need a casual option.

The eventual complexity and realism will provide the allure and can be used in the occasional immersive sessions. The simple version for the un-initiative OR for players who wants a casual experience for a time.

Meanwhile, the global modifiers don't really tailor to both enough and feel contrived.
 

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Actually, coal was one of the only things that Germany found autarky possible. I wouldn't mind the resource system starting with an output of raw that converts to a stockpile of base materials. But coal isn't necessary to mirror themes of history.

Germany still had limitations on how much coal she had to use.

As noted by Tooze in Wages of Destruction, certain kinds of coal were suited to certain kinds of industry, and this had an impact on the organization of the Reich's economy. In fact, there were various attempts to raise coal output throughout the war (via means we cannot discuss).

In HOI4, Germany can paint the map in synthetic plants and it doesn't matter other than the opportunity cost in slots. Some of our economic plans for synthetic rubber and fuel in HOI4 would far outstrip historical Germany's coal production.

But, adding coal or energy to the game would be a ground-up restructuring of the production side of the game. And I'm not sure it's worth it.
 
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But, adding coal or energy to the game would be a ground-up restructuring of the production side of the game. And I'm not sure it's worth it.

I think if we aggregate the current issues, it is worth it. As is, there is a huge balance issue in production. You can't balance based on history when resource consumption is random. (It is with the current system. Plus, I concede that finding historical output is highly non-trivial.) I don't know if coal will make the final cut though.
 
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Raw materials were a problem in the war, obviously, but they did not seem to be the bottleneck I thought they were. Several people have mentioned the book Wages of Destruction, one I now need to read. From what others have posted though, it seems that ammunition alone, consumed more raw material than any plants, tanks, or planes.

In a knee-jerk thought, such information makes me think that instead of raw materials being the major constraint in industry, it is instead complicated tools. Perhaps Stalin was no fool for moving his factory tools like he did. No other nation has ever done such a thing at such a scale, but maybe the Russians understood, it was not oil, steel, or other, it was the tools. They are what is truly scarce.
 

ecpgieicg

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As noted by Tooze in Wages of Destruction, certain kinds of coal were suited to certain kinds of industry, and this had an impact on the organization of the Reich's economy.

Raw materials were a problem in the war, obviously, but they did not seem to be the bottleneck I thought they were. Several people have mentioned the book Wages of Destruction, one I now need to read. From what others have posted though, it seems that ammunition alone, consumed more raw material than any plants, tanks, or planes.

In a knee-jerk thought, such information makes me think that instead of raw materials being the major constraint in industry, it is instead complicated tools. Perhaps Stalin was no fool for moving his factory tools like he did. No other nation has ever done such a thing at such a scale, but maybe the Russians understood, it was not oil, steel, or other, it was the tools. They are what is truly scarce.

Resources certainly were bottlenecking. Just not the particular resources listed in game -- you have to pick some as abstractions. But I suppose you can do categories and that may be better than tungsten and chromium in particular.

Food was bottlenecking famously for Germany. Fuel was for all. Various metals were rationed. etc.

HOI4 production has a LOT of leeway built in. There were not nearly as much production nor resources in the world. I'd certainly prefer less leeway for more immersion.
 
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Harin

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Resources certainly were bottlenecking. Just not the particular resources listed in game -- you have to pick some as abstractions. But I suppose you can do categories and that may be better than tungsten and chromium in particular.

Food was bottlenecking famously for Germany. Fuel was for all. Various metals were rationed. etc.

HOI4 production has a LOT of leeway built in. There were not nearly as much production nor resources in the world. I'd certainly prefer less leeway for more immersion.

I agree. Well said.

I just meant not the bottleneck I had in my mind, which is strange place we should not go. :D
 

Secret Master

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There were not nearly as much production nor resources in the world. I'd certainly prefer less leeway for more immersion.

Well, except for the US. Then it's the opposite.

It's not possible to reach historical levels of production for the US. (I've tried several times, with the results posted on this forum.) But even if I could have enough IC as the US to build everything, I don't think there's enough aluminum available outside the Axis and areas historically occupied by the Axis to build the planes, enough tungsten to build the tanks, or enough steel to build, well, everything.

Don't get me wrong, your point is spot on, I just wanted to point out that the US is the exception to the rule in a big way.
 

Trier

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I understand that they are designed to substitute production for manpower in suppression, but it seems pointless to me. If I have the production to spare and manpower is an issue, shouldn't I use it on making better fighting troops and thus taking less losses in battle?

They're best used off-map.

They have one of the highest land speeds in the game. If you max out the speed on the 3rd armored cars' Tan destroyer variant, they can go quite fast. I found them useful for quickly taking parts of Africa, the United States, or Russia. Anywhere that is desert, or plains they fly across.
 

seattle

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Germany still had limitations on how much coal she had to use.

As noted by Tooze in Wages of Destruction, certain kinds of coal were suited to certain kinds of industry, and this had an impact on the organization of the Reich's economy. In fact, there were various attempts to raise coal output throughout the war (via means we cannot discuss).

In HOI4, Germany can paint the map in synthetic plants and it doesn't matter other than the opportunity cost in slots. Some of our economic plans for synthetic rubber and fuel in HOI4 would far outstrip historical Germany's coal production.

But, adding coal or energy to the game would be a ground-up restructuring of the production side of the game. And I'm not sure it's worth it.

Well, I'm currently trying to figure that out with the World Ablaze mod.
Assuming they get coal right, then it shouldn't be too difficult for PDS to implement it. After all, they are getting paid for it unlike the modders.

#coal
Wasn't it Tooze who wrote something about Germany having had something like 160 years worth of coal stored when war broke out?
I think that Germany mostly failed in building up a sizeable oil stockpile due to currency shortages caused by the rigid autarchy program.
 

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Wasn't it Tooze who wrote something about Germany having had something like 160 years worth of coal stored when war broke out?

I don't think so, but what I'm thinking of were discussions about the types of coal needed for different tasks. And how certain coal mines had to be pushed harder to meet the demand of certain industries.

I do remember that some projections Germany had about resource stockpiles were wildly off the mark once the war started.
 

Commonblob

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Hmm, I would have thought weather and attrition would scare away players before production chains. Again, I might be biased by the forum threads I see every month from players who can't defeat France on low difficulty.

I don't understand the fear of scaring people away with complexity. If someone likes the strategy genre, they will enjoy learning and overcoming the challenge. I've struggled at the start with almost every strategy game series I've tried (yes, over a year ago I made one of those threads about not being able to beat France) and I never saw that initial learning curve as a bad thing.
 

ecpgieicg

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I don't understand the fear of scaring people away with complexity. If someone likes the strategy genre, they will enjoy learning and overcoming the challenge. I've struggled at the start with almost every strategy game series I've tried (yes, over a year ago I made one of those threads about not being able to beat France) and I never saw that initial learning curve as a bad thing.

Glad to have you onboard. The community needs you and others like you to encourage better grand strategy games.

With the current HOI4 player base though, PDX once presented that a plurality of players play with Recruit mode. When they ask a few people why, apparently ppl want relaxing games. (Implying that higher difficulty and possibly utilizing more aspects of the game mechanics is not relaxing. A preference, obviously. But also a trend.) It shouldn't be hard to understand why some players will want to be able to progress in the game by simply producing a bit, train some troops, and beat the enemies as long as they have some troops. That's how a lot of other games go. And most gamers on this planet probably haven't experienced anything beyond.
 

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I don't understand the fear of scaring people away with complexity. If someone likes the strategy genre, they will enjoy learning and overcoming the challenge. I've struggled at the start with almost every strategy game series I've tried (yes, over a year ago I made one of those threads about not being able to beat France) and I never saw that initial learning curve as a bad thing.

I will use an example from another Paradox game about how complexity (and interface) can negatively impact player experience.

I have a good friend who loved playing Stellaris before the elimination of tiles. When Stellaris implemented all those new buildings and mechanics, my friend was no longer interested due to being overwhelmed with new stuff. I really liked some of the new stuff (even if I think the system had problems), but it was too close to playing a spreadsheet for my friend.

That's a real issue. There's a point where the closer a game appears to a spreadsheet, the narrower the audience. And while it's not how I view things, I have to acknowledge that's a part of how it works.

That being said, there's hypothetically a UI that can make this all magically less of a burden, but even when I play other GSGs, I see how hard it is to present information to players in an intelligible way.
 
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