It still isnt fun to play with the reduced manpower pool

[Bohemian_warlord]

You're not relying on your own professional forces that's why

They are my professional forces when I hire them, the line between mercs and normal soldiers was and still is blurry to say the least. The problem of mercs is more often about them being "foreign" rather than being merceneries. The dichotomy between professional and non-professional forces is between professional/elite forces and levy/mass/warrior-caste forces and merceneries were professional/elite force which did not prevent normal army from being professional; in fact they would often be integrated.

The mechanic of Army professionalism is supposed to incentivize player to maintain a fully-funded standing army during peacetime and the mechanic of merceneries exists to give player ability to give their manpower a boost. They both exist to allow player spend extra currency for military power and given that manpower is ahistorically the limiting factor on army size, it makes sense to allow states to spend some extra ducats on soldiers without pointless punishment.

 

[harezmi]

Personally I've had more manpower in this patch than ever, however I'd largely attribute that to my increased willingness to go deep into debt to win wars using many mercs in the early game, then using those larger loans after winning the war to pay off the previous loans for decreased inflation gain, until your income eventually dwarfs your debt and can be paid off easily. I very often end up sitting at or near max manpower, which I use to instantly upgrade monuments.

Something I've noticed about EU4 is that as long as you throw enough money at the game you can win any war, and by winning wars you will have enough income (and loan size+amount) and army tradition, as well as all the available army modifiers (expansionist zealotry, morale/discipline advisor, golden era, prestige, power projection, DotF) to outcompete any AI without ever getting a mil group. In my recent games on this patch I have not yet gotten a single military group out of lack of necessity and much greater value in other groups. I've always used a mil group as first or second group in previous patches (Quantity or Defensive) but its quite a waste of an idea group compared to how amazing diplo and admin are.

I think loans is what needs to be fixed in the first place. You can always take loans, hire mercs, win wars, get bigger, take bigger loans, pay old loans, rinse and repeat.

 

[TK3600]

They are my professional forces when I hire them, the line between mercs and normal soldiers was and still is blurry to say the least. The problem of mercs is more often about them being "foreign" rather than being merceneries. The dichotomy between professional and non-professional forces is between professional/elite forces and levy/mass/warrior-caste forces and merceneries were professional/elite force which did not prevent normal army from being professional; in fact they would often be integrated.

The mechanic of Army professionalism is supposed to incentivize player to maintain a fully-funded standing army during peacetime and the mechanic of merceneries exists to give player ability to give their manpower a boost. They both exist to allow player spend extra currency for military power and given that manpower is ahistorically the limiting factor on army size, it makes sense to allow states to spend some extra ducats on soldiers without pointless punishment.

I actually agree. If I run a big well drilled army I should not be punished for a few mercs. Army as big as la grand armee still had Swiss guards. Didnt stop them having very professional old guards. Only if you use more mercs than a percentage of regular force should you be punished.

 

[Opanashc]

Didnt stop them having very professional old guards.

Very professional, very drilled old guards.

Only if you use more mercs than a percentage of regular force should you be punished.

Higher % of mercs compared to force limit, higher the professionalism drop? 4 merc regiments out of 40 force limit - 10% of a 5 point drop, so 0.5 professionalism lost, 20 out of 40 - 2.5, and so on.

 

[brifbates]

Very professional, very drilled old guards.

Higher % of mercs compared to force limit, higher the professionalism drop? 4 merc regiments out of 40 force limit - 10% of a 5 point drop, so 0.5 professionalism lost, 20 out of 40 - 2.5, and so on.

Why out of a 5 point drop? If you want to buff merc usage then the 5 point limit shouldn't be there. 10% of fl merc then whoosh 10% of your professionalism...

 

[Opanashc]

Why out of a 5 point drop?

Using current numbers.

 

[Hermerico]

There is way too much manpower in the game as it is.

Warfare in this game tens to always involve vastly larger numbers than warfare in this period did in real life.

 

[grommile]

Warfare in this game tens to always involve vastly larger numbers than warfare in this period did in real life.

It consistently involves wrong numbers, but it does so in both directions.

My go-to example here is, of course, the siege of Constantinople in 1453. Ignoring the inflated European estimates, the currently accepted size range for the Ottoman siege force was fifty to eighty thousand.

Compare that to the Ottomans' starting land force limit...

 

[TK3600]

It consistently involves wrong numbers, but it does so in both directions.

My go-to example here is, of course, the siege of Constantinople in 1453. Ignoring the inflated European estimates, the currently accepted size range for the Ottoman siege force was fifty to eighty thousand.

Compare that to the Ottomans' starting land force limit...

Lol don't me started on China and India. Ming had peak army of 500k. Game vastly overestimate European population underestimate rest.

 

[Hermerico]

Ignoring the inflated European estimates, the currently accepted size range for the Ottoman siege force was fifty to eighty thousand.

Compare that to the Ottomans' starting land force limit...

How much is it? I'm pretty sure it should be ober 50k. Spain has it in its 30k's and France in its 40k's..

Lol don't me started on China and India. Ming had peak army of 500k. Game vastly overestimate European population underestimate rest.

A united China and India can easily get to 500k once they get some buildings, ideas and developing going.

Maybe in 1444 Ming starts with a smaller army than it did, but a Qing with 1800 will have manpower in the milions.

Besides, manpower =/= population.
Manpower = recruited, trained, fully equiped and supplied population.

 

[grommile]

How much is it?

About 40.

 

[FishieFan]

About 40.

You can go over fl, and seeing the mass costs of ottoman armies you could say they were over fl up until they started losing ground. Ai ottos used to always go over fl for galleys to defend its straits

 

[grommile]

You can go over fl

Sure, but you only need ten thousand men to besiege Constantinople in the game, so why would you?

 

[FishieFan]

Sure, but you only need ten thousand men to besiege Constantinople in the game, so why would you?

To fight all the wars at the same time ottos historically did?

 

[KlinkerFyren]

I like the reduced manpower these days. Makes you have to be more careful with it and also makes you use mercs and the debts necessary to pay them more often. Might just be my own personal psychosis though since I like the current merc system and will enjoy it even more when the new merc ideas gets released.

 

[TK3600]

How much is it? I'm pretty sure it should be ober 50k. Spain has it in its 30k's and France in its 40k's..


A united China and India can easily get to 500k once they get some buildings, ideas and developing going.

Maybe in 1444 Ming starts with a smaller army than it did, but a Qing with 1800 will have manpower in the milions.

Besides, manpower =/= population.
Manpower = recruited, trained, fully equiped and supplied population.

I don't think you understand. They had actual 500k troop deployed. Not manpower reserves. If we are being real Chinese province need like 50 manpower dev. They are both bigger in size and denser in population.

 

[brifbates]

I don't think you understand. They had actual 500k troop deployed. Not manpower reserves. If we are being real Chinese province need like 50 manpower dev. They are both bigger in size and denser in population.

Sure, but what % of that was only ever locally deployed as a police / rebel deterrence force? The simple fact is the game allows much more freedom of use for the military than was actually the case. They could implement systems so the historic army sizes of larger nations were reached but in return they would also have to do something to lock them in place as well if the aim is historicity.

 

[strqfzd911]

the merc system just needs to be improved. It'd be nice if mercs were separate units that could be merged with regular armies, but still draw their reinforcements from their company manpower pool, while also retaining any bonuses the company provides to those units. Currently the system works in theory, but in practice no one likes handling clunky merc stacks you have to attach separately to your main army.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

There is way too much manpower in the game as it is.

Warfare in this game tens to always involve vastly larger numbers than warfare in this period did in real life.

Yeah, people seem to forget that a lot.

Reduced manpower pools make the game more realistic and more strategic.

You shouldn't be able to walk around with massive stacks, disregarding terrain and taking battle after battle.

I don't understand people who struggle with manpower. Manage your troops properly and slacken professionalism when need be, you should be more than fine.

 

[Camara]

I don't think you understand. They had actual 500k troop deployed. Not manpower reserves. If we are being real Chinese province need like 50 manpower dev. They are both bigger in size and denser in population.

I think this is just a game limitation - if Ming had the historical production and manpower in this game it would start annexing everything in sight. In real life this didn't happen because of internal politics/choices, feasability (yeah getting 500k crossing the himalayas to attack Delhi would be lunacy so realistically send either small armies or analyse if it really matters to fight Delhi) and technology/"institutions" (in the game these are "broken" as rotw countries can get institutions fine, and the later ones are even easier to get - it should be the reverse.