It is weird that to be recognised you need to declare war on a recognised country.

[yurcick]

You seem to misunderstand what im saying here is saying the Nations of Europe treated the US different then the rest of the new world nations.

It treated the US as a nation that projected influence and had a sphere the rest of the New world nations it didnt to the same degree. Out of the new world nations the Largest were the US Mexico and Brazil I know little of the latter but Mexico despite it size was seen as a target by European intervention specifically the French.

I didn't say this makes them unrecognized my point was the US was an exception and the game mechanics should probably not be based on it as an example.

People kept mentioning the US in this threat so my point was that it was such an exception to the rules that making your game rules work around it I don't think would work well.

All of this can simply be explained by US status of GP.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

To make it more historical, there should be several levels of recognition.
And you have to go to war (something close to total war) with one of GP in order to get them to recognise you as equal to them.
Great Powers of this period, such as Great Britain, were really arrogant. They had the military superiority to be arrogant. And they imposed that arrogance on the rest of the world through their military power and became even more arrogant.
Proof of military equality is absolutely necessary as a condition of recognition.

I don't think it is appropriate in the age of imperialism to portray Great Powers as good guys who will treat you as equals if you have an advanced economy and laws.

i think there could be a late-game tech which causes recognition, but it should be very late game. this would capture how, as I pointed out, some nations like Persia became recognized without having to first beat a European power. Alternatively, late game, great powers could voluntarily recognize an unrecognized power which would have massive diplomatic bonuses, but only great powers would have this ability. This could capture how countries like Siam gained a certain level of recognition in their relations with France and Britain

 

[GrounchoVilla]

one thought - people have been talking a lot about the Russo-Japanese war, but there was also the Battle of Adwa where Ethiopia effectively gained recognition as a true power by kicking the living daylights out of the Italian Army

 

[Slaikkiz]

I think the mechanic should be removed, historically Japan was not considered equal even after the First world war.

From wiki:

(Japanese: 人種的差別撤廃提案, Hepburn: Jinshutekisabetsu teppai teian, lit. "Proposal to abolish racial discrimination") was an amendment to the Treaty of Versailles that was considered at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. Proposed by Japan, it was never intended to have any universal implications, but one was attached to it anyway, which caused its controversy.[1] Japanese Foreign Minister Uchida Kōsai stated in June 1919 that the proposal was intended not to demand the racial equality of all coloured peoples but only that of members of the League of Nations.[1]

Though it was broadly supported, the proposal did not become part of the treaty, largely because of opposition by the United States and the dominions of the British Empire Delegation, namely Australia and New Zealand.[2]

 

[Kyoumen]

Though it was broadly supported, the proposal did not become part of the treaty, largely because of opposition by the United States and the dominions of the British Empire Delegation, namely Australia and New Zealand.[2]

Quelle surprise!

 

[Ttrgw]

i think there could be a late-game tech which causes recognition, but it should be very late game. this would capture how, as I pointed out, some nations like Persia became recognized without having to first beat a European power. Alternatively, late game, great powers could voluntarily recognize an unrecognized power which would have massive diplomatic bonuses, but only great powers would have this ability. This could capture how countries like Siam gained a certain level of recognition in their relations with France and Britain

It is necessary to consider that the international order changed after WW1.
The enormous damage of WW1 frustrated imperialism, which aimed for prosperity through conquest. War was outlawed and equality between nations was promoted.
This change in the international order does not exist in V3. Recognition without war should only be granted when the international order becomes more oriented towards peace and equality due to the failure of imperialism.

 

[yurcick]

I think the mechanic should be removed, historically Japan was not considered equal even after the First world war.

From wiki:

(Japanese: 人種的差別撤廃提案, Hepburn: Jinshutekisabetsu teppai teian, lit. "Proposal to abolish racial discrimination") was an amendment to the Treaty of Versailles that was considered at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. Proposed by Japan, it was never intended to have any universal implications, but one was attached to it anyway, which caused its controversy.[1] Japanese Foreign Minister Uchida Kōsai stated in June 1919 that the proposal was intended not to demand the racial equality of all coloured peoples but only that of members of the League of Nations.[1]

Though it was broadly supported, the proposal did not become part of the treaty, largely because of opposition by the United States and the dominions of the British Empire Delegation, namely Australia and New Zealand.[2]

I don't think that prejudices towards racial equality, which drag into 21st century as well, are the same as country's recognition. There is an obvious correlation, you are automatically recognized if you're white, but not more than that.

 

[tom5675]

I haven't personally taken an unrecognised country and made them recognised.
Wouldn't it work like any diplomatic play, in that you could get the other side to back down and not have to fight a war? Or does the AI just stubbornly never back down to recognition plays?

 

[sigismundus]

I think that getting "GP recognition" shouldn't be limited only to the war goal.
It should be a bigger/longer process with several steps (maybe similar to the Grand Exhibition Journal entry) where winning the war against Europan power could be one of the possible culminations. So you can have a diplomatic/culture/technology/war approach to the goal of recognition.


In my Japan game, I get recognition by declaring war on Italy (weakest GP), with which I do not have any border even not in colonies, using the obligation I have on Frace and waiting with doing nothing (I do not even mobilize any general) till France do all the fighting.
It felt strange.

 

[ac566]

Nope, it wouldn't, because central gameplay mechanics never are.

It'd be nice if people complaining about Paradox DLC were ever intellectually honest about it.

EUIV:
- Macro builder
- Diplo macro builder
- Abandoning cores
- Giving allies/subjects objectives in war
- Selling ships
- Pressing vassal claims
- Upgrading ships
- Colonial Nations
- Moving Trade Capital
- Subject Interactions
- Navy Automation
- Mothballing fleets
- Disinheriting heirs
- Declaring war when under a regency
- Transfer occupation
- Auto transporting armies
- Developing provinces
- Granting provinces to vassals
- Converting subjects
- Tech sharing
- Setting interests
- Piracy/Anti-piracy (IN DIFFERENT DLCS)
- Aside from all the strait up UI options, there are plenty of mechanics that have been reworked with a paywall in mind, it's happened numerous times.

It has gotten a bit better over the years, but don't pretend PDX hasn't locked some pretty asinine things behind paywalls. If they'll paywall an interface whose sole purpose is to reduce micro, it's not a stretch to imagine that they'd paywall a mechanic relevant to such a small subset of nations that don't even get much playtime.

 

[Kyoumen]

EUIV:
- Macro builder
- Diplo macro builder
- Abandoning cores
- Giving allies/subjects objectives in war
- Selling ships
- Pressing vassal claims
- Upgrading ships
- Colonial Nations
- Moving Trade Capital
- Subject Interactions
- Navy Automation
- Mothballing fleets
- Disinheriting heirs
- Declaring war when under a regency
- Transfer occupation
- Auto transporting armies
- Developing provinces
- Granting provinces to vassals
- Converting subjects
- Tech sharing
- Setting interests
- Piracy/Anti-piracy (IN DIFFERENT DLCS)
- Aside from all the strait up UI options, there are plenty of mechanics that have been reworked with a paywall in mind, it's happened numerous times.

It has gotten a bit better over the years, but don't pretend PDX hasn't locked some pretty asinine things behind paywalls. If they'll paywall an interface whose sole purpose is to reduce micro, it's not a stretch to imagine that they'd paywall a mechanic relevant to such a small subset of nations that don't even get much playtime.

Not a single one of those is a central gameplay mechanic, and the only one I've seen people complain is impossible to do without (erroneously) is development. Meanwhile, mechanics that Paradox decided were central were later made available to everyone.

I did not say "no feature ever is behind a DLC", because that is obviously silly. But an adjustment to a central feature of gameplay for more than half the countries in the game (becoming recognised) is not likely to be behind a DLC, because it is a core feature. "Selling ships" ain't it, chief.

 

[Secret Master]

Wouldn't it work like any diplomatic play, in that you could get the other side to back down and not have to fight a war? Or does the AI just stubbornly never back down to recognition plays?

The AI will back down like it would in any normal play.

If I can be recognized without firing a shot, then there's no reason to be snarky about getting what you want without warfare.

In fact, I got recognized and didn't even start the diplomatic play.

Playing as China, the US initiates a play against me. I mobilize by professional army (well over 500 battalions) and, as my only goal, demand recognition. The US dawdles a bit, and realizes no one is going to join the war. They also realize I can actually afford to mobilize an army 2.5 times the size of theirs.

They back down and give me recognition. No shots being fired, and I didn't even have to press the button to initiate a diplomatic play.

Or, in 6 panel meme form:

View attachment 933051

 

[ac566]

Not a single one of those is a central gameplay mechanic, and the only one I've seen people complain is impossible to do without (erroneously) is development. Meanwhile, mechanics that Paradox decided were central were later made available to everyone.

I did not say "no feature ever is behind a DLC", because that is obviously silly. But an adjustment to a central feature of gameplay for more than half the countries in the game (becoming recognised) is not likely to be behind a DLC, because it is a core feature. "Selling ships" ain't it, chief.

Stuff like the army/diplo macro builder and templates are pretty damn essential and still not free. There's a reason the meme exists.

Never said you said that. My point still stands if they'd be willing to paywall a literal set of buttons that just make playing the game less tedious why would it be out of character for them to sell a rework of how getting recognized works?

 

[yurcick]

an adjustment to a central feature of gameplay for more than half the countries in the game is not likely to be behind a DLC

Remember CK2? You needed a DLC to play as anything other than feudal Christians.

 

[Kyoumen]

Remember CK2? You needed a DLC to play as anything other than feudal Christians.

CK2 was a) literally the first game under the current DLC policy, and b) followed up Crusader Kings, where nothing but Christians were ever officially playable.

Like you can pick around the edges if you like, but Paradox has a really good track record of putting core features in the free patches, to the point that more than once we've had threads where people complained it didn't seem worth buying the DLC because all the significant content was in the free patch.

 

[EquilinT]

Thailand didn't have to fight a major war to be recognized.

off my memory, Siam was only "recognized" after WW1 when they demanded revision of the unequal treaties against them. Before that they were always in a difficult negotiating position (and gunboat'd by the French), even as the ruling class try to get the recognition through interaction with European societies.

 

[Vernichtere]

off my memory, Siam was only "recognized" after WW1 when they demanded revision of the unequal treaties against them. Before that they were always in a difficult negotiating position (and gunboat'd by the French), even as the ruling class try to get the recognition through interaction with European societies.

i know the story All I mean is that Siam survived without becoming a major power.

There wasn't a fixed rule. Siam, for example, was between France and Great Britain and could maneuver in this way. Latin America was partially left alone as the region was covered by the US and UK. With an emphasis on partial.

Yes, in relation to Asia and Africa, racism was used as a justification. Under different circumstances, however, one could easily have used the same justification for Latin America or Europe itself. What was later done by the Germans in relation to Europe: the East as a colony that was easy to defend.

In the game, however, I have to work with fixed rules that can only partially reflect reality. And since a war for promotion is a little too much to ask.

 

[MachopPower69]

i know the story All I mean is that Siam survived without becoming a major power.

There wasn't a fixed rule. Siam, for example, was between France and Great Britain and could maneuver in this way. Latin America was partially left alone as the region was covered by the US and UK. With an emphasis on partial.

Yes, in relation to Asia and Africa, racism was used as a justification. Under different circumstances, however, one could easily have used the same justification for Latin America or Europe itself. What was later done by the Germans in relation to Europe: the East as a colony that was easy to defend.

In the game, however, I have to work with fixed rules that can only partially reflect reality. And since a war for promotion is a little too much to ask.

Siam survived because it Westernised. Not sure if Paradox combines both Westernisation and Recognition as one entity but since Japan has a journal chain dedicated to Westernising Japan, it doesn't make Japan recognised.

And what does recognised countries mean? If it isn't recognised, is it empty land or is it like the Israel-Palestine recognition dispute?

 

[EwaldvonKleist]

@OP: I agree with you. Perhaps being a leading producer of (for the time) advanced goods together with high GDP or a lot of trade should be viable as well. If in 1905 Japan had sent a locally developed all-big-gun battleship on a world tour that equals the UKs dreadnought, this may have had a similar effect as the victory against as Russia.

Historically European countries only started treating Japan as if it was a real power after their victory over the Russians in 1905. That is really the only time during the Vicky timeframe a non-European country became recognised as a potential great power.

I think it's doubtful they would have believed things had changed without a demonstration like that.

1905 drove the point home very quickly. But I believe once Japan had started colonizing Asia and become technologically competitive, e.g. by domestically building cutting edge warships, they would have done so anyway, just a bit later. The process had already started in the 2 decades before 1905, as others in this thread have already shown.

It just does not make sense that European powers would not recognize a technologically leading Qing that can deploy its own Dreadnought fleet* to protect its 40% share of world GDP and world trade.

*the 1910s equivalent to microchips and space rockets as a proof of technological prowess

 

[Bearjuden]

Not sure if Paradox combines both Westernisation and Recognition as one entity

V3 doesn't have a singular "westernization" label. Instead you reform your laws to the western structure. You are westernized when you no longer have traditional socioeconomic power structures, but the game never says "congrats, you are western now" and you only have to westernize as far as you think is appropriate.

By contrast, recognition is actually called out in-game. So no, it is not one entity.