It is weird that to be recognised you need to declare war on a recognised country.

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MachopPower69

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I am playing as Japan. I have an alliance with a recognised country and am at the maximum power number but I can't be recognised unless I go fisticuffs with a major power. It would be nice if there was a diplomatically friendly way to become recognised.
 
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Fawr

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Historically European countries only started treating Japan as if it was a real power after their victory over the Russians in 1905. That is really the only time during the Vicky timeframe a non-European country became recognised as a potential great power.

I think it's doubtful they would have believed things had changed without a demonstration like that.
 
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Bearjuden

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Not to pile on, but Japan is the only country for which this mechanic actually makes sense
The US was taken much more seriously as a global power after thrashing the Spanish. It's not just Japan, but people have a hard time with the idea that the US should start unrecognized, so one of the two prime cases for it in-game isn't even able to use it since they start recognized.
 
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yurcick

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I agree that the current "force recognition" mechanics is inflexible.
But I do think that getting recognized should not be an easy feat, at least before late game.

And I currently don't have ideas what peaceful means (in game mechanics terms) could be used to complement force recognition.
Maybe some sort of technological ascending? Like "if you're the first to reaearch a tech, you get a point. Three points and you're recognized". Dunno.
 

Cry_Havok

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I agree that the current "force recognition" mechanics is inflexible.
But I do think that getting recognized should not be an easy feat, at least before late game.

And I currently don't have ideas what peaceful means (in game mechanics terms) could be used to complement force recognition.
Maybe some sort of technological ascending? Like "if you're the first to reaearch a tech, you get a point. Three points and you're recognized". Dunno.

Being a number one producer in an industrial good maybe? Hitting certain thresholds in Standard of Living or Literacy ranking? Having a larger navy/army than a great power? Just being allied to a great power? Having a Skyscraper? Then just hit five "points" worth and you should become recognized peacefully
 
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paulxiep

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Not only do we have to war them, we have to war them while we're already major power (winning any war against them before that doesn't count. I just took down Russia in a war as Burundi and it doesn't count, because I'm not yet a major power).
And 'them' has to be a great power too, not just anyone.
 
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MachopPower69

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It is weird that as Japan, I own most of the Pacific yet I can't be recognised. (Playing a mod, for clarity, where the world is different "Basileia Rhomaion". I am Japan and I am colonising Australia as it is uncolonised at the start like half of North America.)
 

BPZ1941

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The US was taken much more seriously as a global power after thrashing the Spanish. It's not just Japan, but people have a hard time with the idea that the US should start unrecognized, so one of the two prime cases for it in-game isn't even able to use it since they start recognized.
Taken much more seriously =/= going from unrecognized to recognized. Japan should be considered 'recognized' from the Sino-Japanese War (1895) because they later participated in the suppression of the Boxers, which means they had a recognized sphere of influence. After Shimonoseki, several western powers also intervened to keep Japan from gaining too much influence.

If that isn't recognition of their status, I don't know what is.
 
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yurcick

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Being a number one producer in an industrial good maybe?
Too easy to achieve with most goods except for high-tech ones, where it is again about technology simply.
And frankly, still too restrictive: it's product per capita that would actually matter, even if the overall production can not rival behemoths like ENG or FRA.
Hitting certain thresholds in Standard of Living or Literacy ranking?
As a point-giving thing, good idea.
Having a larger navy/army than a great power?
Too easy, especially for Qing/Japan.
Just being allied to a great power?
Too easy to manipulate.
Having a Skyscraper?
Yeah, why not.

However, I get your point. It is indeed possible to come up with gradual stuff to represent recognition.
 
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MachopPower69

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Too easy to achieve with most goods except for high-tech ones, where it is again about technology simply.
And frankly, still too restrictive: it's product per capita that would actually matter, even if the overall production can not rival behemoths like ENG or FRA.

As a point-giving thing, good idea.

Too easy, especially for Qing/Japan.

Too easy to manipulate.

Yeah, why not.

However, I get your point. It is indeed possible to come up with gradual stuff to represent recognition.
Instead of the ally thing, perhaps joining in a customs union, a defence pact and an obligation could sweeten the deal?
 

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Instead of the ally thing, perhaps joining in a customs union, a defence pact and an obligation could sweeten the deal?
Joining a customs union would prevent a nation from ever becoming a great power as they're technically a subject, which is bad because becoming a GP from an unrecongized start is half the fun.

I guess they could just join and then leave as soon as they're recognized, but then that kinda seems like a redundant goal.

It might make more sense to have good relations with multiple GPs, as having only one GP backing you wouldn't necessarily make you seem more worthy of recognition to the other powers.
 

Traslogan

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Nah you're just wrong bro, Paradox said you can do anything without warfare if you want.

Jokes about the state of the game aside, it would make sense that there are peaceful options to become recognized, perhaps overtime / slowly. I think if you start being the provider of a lot of non-raw resources to the major powers then that should slowly accumulate in a recognized status as an industrial power.


I'm sure that will not be locked behind a $30 DLC.
 
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MachopPower69

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Nah you're just wrong bro, Paradox said you can do anything without warfare if you want.

Jokes about the state of the game aside, it would make sense that there are peaceful options to become recognized, perhaps overtime / slowly. I think if you start being the provider of a lot of non-raw resources to the major powers then that should slowly accumulate in a recognized status as an industrial power.


I'm sure that will not be locked behind a $30 DLC.
You're wrong, it would be locked behind a $40 DLC
 
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Bearjuden

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Taken much more seriously =/= going from unrecognized to recognized. Japan should be considered 'recognized' from the Sino-Japanese War (1895) because they later participated in the suppression of the Boxers, which means they had a recognized sphere of influence. After Shimonoseki, several western powers also intervened to keep Japan from gaining too much influence.

If that isn't recognition of their status, I don't know what is.
You're making a distinction without a difference. Recognition is the process of being taken more seriously with equal geopolitical situation, and the acquisition of the Phillipines didn't tangibly change the US geopolitical situation so much that it accounted for the shift in how people treated it.

If anything your argument makes sense as a point against Japan being recognized from fighting Russia and more for a peaceful means of recognition, where it was what Europe offered Japan to sway Japan into the Boxer Rebellion play (to use game lingo).
 
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You're making a distinction without a difference. Recognition is the process of being taken more seriously with equal geopolitical situation, and the acquisition of the Phillipines didn't tangibly change the US geopolitical situation so much that it accounted for the shift in how people treated it.
But that still doesn't make much sense, because Spain had just been sitting around in civil unrest for half a century. They're hardly even close to as much a great power as post-1848 USA. It really doesn't look nearly as much like a 'recognition war' as simply the United States deciding to take part in global imperialism rather than stick to their plot of land in North America. And considering that the US themselves spent a very long time mired in internal conflict and drawn out wars with the natives that makes a lot more sense to me.

But you could say that the effects of wars on national prestige is undertuned in the game - humiliating rivals should be more common and hit harder.
If anything your argument makes sense as a point against Japan being recognized from fighting Russia and more for a peaceful means of recognition, where it was what Europe offered Japan to sway Japan into the Boxer Rebellion play (to use game lingo).
Great, because that is the point I'm trying to make. The war of 1905 is really exaggerated after that dev diary on recognition - forgetting the Boxer protocol, the Anglo-Japanese alliance and the Tripartite intervention. An exact mechanic would ideally take all factors into account, but sways in return for recognition/supporting recognition is a great start. I just very much like the Tripartite intervention because not only is it participating in imperialism, but it is also becoming infamous and getting 'contained' by the GPs after the fact. That makes it much harder to claim that 1905 is a good cutoff for mechanical reasons.
 
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Secret Master

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I can't be recognised unless I go fisticuffs with a major power. It would be nice if there was a diplomatically friendly way to become recognised.

Nah you're just wrong bro, Paradox said you can do anything without warfare if you want.

Jokes about the state of the game aside

If I can be recognized without firing a shot, then there's no reason to be snarky about getting what you want without warfare.

In fact, I got recognized and didn't even start the diplomatic play.

Playing as China, the US initiates a play against me. I mobilize by professional army (well over 500 battalions) and, as my only goal, demand recognition. The US dawdles a bit, and realizes no one is going to join the war. They also realize I can actually afford to mobilize an army 2.5 times the size of theirs.

They back down and give me recognition. No shots being fired, and I didn't even have to press the button to initiate a diplomatic play.

Or, in 6 panel meme form:

1672244352474.png
 
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Werther

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Taken much more seriously =/= going from unrecognized to recognized. Japan should be considered 'recognized' from the Sino-Japanese War (1895) because they later participated in the suppression of the Boxers, which means they had a recognized sphere of influence. After Shimonoseki, several western powers also intervened to keep Japan from gaining too much influence.

If that isn't recognition of their status, I don't know what is.

Yep. Japan was recognized in the 1890s, the Japan-Russia War in the next decade was a bit suprising, but not completely "crazy" and confirmed what a lot of European powers already knew.

Here is a caricature published in a French newspapers in 1898, where you can see the powers eating the "Chinese cake". Japan is represented with UK, Germany, Russia and France.
This is a decade before the Japan-Russia War.

1280px-China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg
 
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Yep. Japan was recognized in the 1890s, the Japan-Russia War in the next decade was a bit suprising, but not completely "crazy" and confirmed what a lot of European powers already knew.

Spent a lot of time on the Russo-Japanese War back in my college days, and I have to disagree with you there. It's reasonable to imagine that there can also be *other* ways of achieving Recognized status, but the war had a much bigger impact on European impressions of Japan's status than the exploitation of China did.

In game terms, you can take part in diplomatic plays without being Recognized. But having the European major powers think you're "one of them" (my best guess as to what "Recognized" means) should require either a clear military victory or an extended period of economic dominance. After all, Imperial China was at some pre-Victoria points big and successful enough that we might think they were a no-brainer for Recognition. but would Europeans have treated them that way?
 
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