Issues with Unholy Alliance

[unmerged(39911)]

I am wondering if anyone else has run into problems with the unholy alliance and saving the game.

After the proposal is generated, the Soviet Union moves into the Axis block of the Diplomacy screen, and all "alliance options" such as fog of war liftings, blueprint trading, etc. are active.

However, upon saving the game and reloading it, the Soviets are suddenly back to being part of the Comintern, and no longer allied to Germany, yet Germany still reads as Allied to the Comintern, even though they are no longer in the same block of the Diplomacy screen (Germany is Axis and Soviet Union is Comintern). As they are no longer in the same block, the "alliance options" are no longer in effect.

I have submitted a copy of the save as noted above, I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed this...

 

[Castellon]

Let's move you to the GD form then, as this is not a bug discussion forum.
*moved

 

[Jebus]

I'm puzzled as to why this isn't in the bug discussion forum, but anyway...


I've just had the same bug. In my Sovjet Union game, I had already set up everything needed for world domination before the Molotov-Ribbentrop event arrived: I had allied every nation in South America, sent techs and expedition forces to be ready for invasion of the USA, conquered and liberated China and all those freaky 'little' semi-Chinese nations, and was just on the verge of liberating Korea and invading the Japanese main islands.

When the Ribbentrop event arrived, I chose to pick the 'Full alliance' option, as I would then not have to worry about a Western front when I invade the USA. However, when Germany accepted, all kinds of freaky stuff happened: I (the SU) and my three puppet nations (Communist China, Xibei San ma and Mongolia) were moved into the 'Axis' alliance, when all my Soutern American allies remained in the Comintern block, and thus ceased to be my allies - basically blowing my entire 'Invade-America' plan. I also, for some reason, made a white peace with Japan (although Japan wasn't a member of the Axis), losing all the territory I had conquered from them and automatically redeploying all units I had on their territory to Moskow... (sigh) But, as I made this forced white peace, all my allies (including my previous Southern American allies, AND my puppet nations that had now moved to the 'Axis' block) continued fighting Japan - and are now basically getting their arses kicked as I had only just liberated them, and they didn't have time to build up an army yet...

To make matters worse: I can NOT trade techs with Germany, even though I am in the Axis block. This is quite the bummer, as German techs were one of the main reasons why I made the 'Unholy alliance' anyway. I can also no longer trade techs with my (ex-)Southern American nations, yet I CAN still trade techs with my puppet nations... Tsjeesh.

I don't know what all went wrong there, but I think this was all caused by the fact that the the SU, the leader of the Comintern, was suddenly moved to the Axis block... I'd suggest the following:

1. Either 'remove' one of those two possible alliance blocks when the 'Onholy alliance' option is chosen, thus bringing all Axis nations into the Comintern block or all Comintern nations into the Axis block; avoiding these kind of problems

2. Make the alliance the human player is playing the 'dominant' alliance, meaning: if you're playing as Germany when this happens, move the SU and it's allies into the Axis block; or if the Soviet Union is human controlled, move all the Axis nations in the Comintern block - so the Human player can still be in charge of the alliance.



It's too bad this bug happened, really, as this particular game was going very, very well... I had almost brought socialism to the Americans

 

[unmerged(38726)]

How big is the chance that Russia agrees to the onholy alliance in 1939? I have tried at least 10 times but never succeded.

 

[unmerged(17928)]

How big is the chance that Russia agrees to the onholy alliance in 1939? I have tried at least 10 times but never succeded.

About 1% IIRC.

Also the game is not really designed for this alternative outcome, so I guess wierd things are much more likely to happen.

Regards

 

[Jebus]

Also the game is not really designed for this alternative outcome, so I guess wierd things are much more likely to happen.

Wether or not the game was designed for this 'alternative outcome' is irrelevant: if they put it in the game, they damn well have to make it work.

 

[unmerged(17928)]

I agree up to a point.
But an alliance between Germany and the USSR is rather boring to play IMO. You can outbuild even the US and so it is just a question of how long it takes you to conquer the world.
I would much rather like them to improve the"regular" ai than the ai for the unholy alliance first.
But I agree - they should have left it out completely!

p.s. There are a mulytitude of threads about historical vs. ahistorical play, so I guess to discuss this point may prove as fruitless as discussing different tastes. IMO the "Unholy alliance" makes for a totally different game and belongs to the mods (like a very early Cold War). And since this game doesn't cover the Cold War the "unholy alliance" may be underdevelloped.
As I said I would look in the mod forums for a solution and not expect this from Paradox; allthough I agree with you on the point that they shouldn't have alternate outcomes included and no events/ai prepared for it.

Regards

 

[unmerged(9136)]

I'll have to aggree with Jebus on this issue.

I do understand that the game can't react in a meaninful way to every single possible ahistorical alliance that the player created via the diplomacy screen. E.g., that if you brought Spain into the Axis early, they won't give Vichy's territory back (like Germany does). Fair enough, it's something that wasn't really supposed to happen, so I can't fault the devs for not writing Spain events for that.

Or that if Spain or Italy take the city of Vichy first, you can't get the puppet state event. Again, fair enough. Historically it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

I would, however, expect that explicit choices in events, like the Unholy Alliance, actually work. Seein' as, you know, it's the game itself that suggests that action. It's not something completely unexpected that the player came up with, and the devs never even thought about. It's in fact the devs that came up with that idea.

 

[Jebus]

I agree up to a point.
But an alliance between Germany and the USSR is rather boring to play IMO. You can outbuild even the US and so it is just a question of how long it takes you to conquer the world.

I know that, but it's all in how you play, eh?
I usually roleplay, trying to crawl into Stalin's mind as he unleashes his paranoid and delusional madness upon the world. For that reason I wanted a full alliance with the Germans, untill there were no obstacles to World Revolution left but Germany themselves.
As I said, it's a path you can take. Too bad they didn't finish it off properly...

 

[unmerged(38726)]

Is there any chances of increase the chance of the unholy alliance? I will try with 200+ relation and low beliegernce, do you think this will matter anything?

 

[unmerged(6777)]

My guess is that there is something slightly different inthe way the SU joins the Axis versus the way it joins the Allies and that, in the former, if it still has at least one puppet the commintern isn't correctly disolved and the puppet status isn't properly removed from the puppet. It can handle this in game, but when you load a save it will get comflicting information from the nation status and wants to re-create the Commintern to deal with the data coming from the puppet. This is undoubtedly an oversight and a bug that simply hasn't been caught before because it's a relatively rare occurence.

In defence of the betatesters, it's something that would be fairly tricky to catch since most testers will not take that option other than to test that the event fires correctly for all actions. If I'd been doing the testing of this event, after picking the option to join Axis I would have confirmed that SU correctly joins Axis (which it does) and been satisfied with what I saw. It would never have occured to me to then save the game and reload it to see if SU stayed correctly in the Axis since I don't think we ever encountered anything like that happening before (I certainly haven't). I would have (incorrectly) assumed that if the transition happened correctly in game, the situation would be saved correctly.

The save game you sent in will get looked at carefully and the bug will get tracked down and fixed.

Oh....and the tech support forum is there to hep resolve platform-related issues (instalation/sound/graphics/etc.), not for bug-reporting. In previous games there has also been a bug reporting forum associated with each game. I think that there had been a tendency for these to be somewhat chaotic and less than efficient in terms of getting the correct information to the developers and then back to the public. For HoI2 there is a dedicated staff person at Paradox who tests each reported bug, confirms that it is a bug, and then ensures that the data is given to the correct person in development. This menas that less developer time is wasted on sorting through non-bugs, and result in a far greater chance of legitimate bugs getting fixed promptly.

I, too, miss the feedback and ability to check other people's reported bugs, but I understand the reasons behind it.

Cheers.

C

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Is there any chances of increase the chance of the unholy alliance? I will try with 200+ relation and low beliegernce, do you think this will matter anything?

Not in this instance, no. If you want to increase the chance then you would need to edit the event to alter the ai_chance values in the event options.

 

[unmerged(38726)]

So if we conclude it: the chance of the unholy alliance in 1939 is very slim, about one percent chance of succes. Even if its a small chance, there is still a chance

 

[unmerged(38273)]

Actually it's no chance for German AI. Only Human German can get an unholy alliance..

So if you are playing Allies, don't chill at the the thought that an unholy alliance is coming

So if we conclude it: the chance of the unholy alliance in 1939 is very slim, about one percent chance of succes. Even if its a small chance, there is still a chance

 

[unmerged(38726)]

As an experiment i tried to see whats happened, so i simply saved the game at 22th of August 1939 and choosed the first option "Molotov-Ribbentrop historical outcome. If im correct informed there is now a chance of about 1% that the event "Unholy alliance" triggers. So i have tried about 40 times but nothing happened. Lithuania did not gave Memel to me if that matter?

I wants the unholy alliance

 

[unmerged(39911)]

Thank you for the info there MrT...

If it helps, it's Tannu Tuva that stays in the Comintern, while Mongolia and Soviet Union joins the Axis...

And a thought for the dev-team to consider, is to create a bug reporting forum for the players etc. to discuss bugs, and put (as a sticky or announcement) the "how to report a bug to the dev team" post.
When I wanted to report this, I went to tech support as that was the first sub-forum that seemed to concern itself with issues, found the bug report steps contained therein, and followed them. I figured this post would help alert players to the fact that I thought something was up, allow us to compare notes, and maybe get more reports into the e-mail address to assist in fully curing the issue... Didn't realize then that tech-support was platform related and not game-bug related...

 

[Vulture]

This *IS* a bug... Thank you for bringing it to our attention...

Passed on now.

 

[unmerged(28582)]

As an experiment i tried to see whats happened, so i simply saved the game at 22th of August 1939 and choosed the first option "Molotov-Ribbentrop historical outcome. If im correct informed there is now a chance of about 1% that the event "Unholy alliance" triggers. So i have tried about 40 times but nothing happened. Lithuania did not gave Memel to me if that matter?

I wants the unholy alliance

I haven't tried this, but I would think you could F12/Neville and just offer alliance to the Soviets at that point.

I have never been one for cheating in any game, but "Neville" and "Robespierre" and the ability to load up as different nations can pretty much overcome a lot of game-engine issues with HOI - especially in the area of events.

For example: I just had my beloved USSR restart the Russo-Polish war in early '36. Germany DOW'd me and this resulted in a blessedly-early end to the Hitlerite regime. So I manually triggered the "Soviet New Order in Europe" event, setting up the east European puppets. Since it was counterintuitive for Hungary, Czech, Romania, Finland, and Bulgaria to be my puppets (they had stayed out of the war) I actually released them, loaded up as each one of them, and Robespierred them all back to their original political alignments.

A lot of work, yes, but it crafted what to my mind would have been the historical outcome of the "Stalin reaches the Rhine in '36" scenario (puppet Poland and DDR.) Seems more constructive a way to deal with things than griping about events and the game engine.

 

[unmerged(38726)]

The problem with the "neville" cheat is that Soviet union already is a member of an alliance.

 

[Jebus]

If it helps, it's Tannu Tuva that stays in the Comintern, while Mongolia and Soviet Union joins the Axis...

Same as what happened to me: only my puppets followed me to the Axis...