Isn't it time we had Romans in Charlemagne?

[Legionary Guard]

To be honest, I want to know how this thread went from 'What areas in 769 CE could be considered 'Roman' and how long would they stay that way?' to a quasi-theological debate concerning the validity of deposing a pope.

 

[Dakilla TM]

To be honest, I want to know how this thread went from 'What areas in 769 CE could be considered 'Roman' and how long would they stay that way?' to a quasi-theological debate concerning the validity of deposing a pope.

Well you can thank Kaiserlicher Ritter for that.

 

[Kaiserlicher Ritter]

Obviously the Vatican itself disagrees with you considering even the Annuario Pontifico published by the Holy See says he was exiled and replaced as Pope legally.

You must have forgotten the first seven Ecumenical Councils are recognized by both Eastern and Western churches up to 787 and who called those councils? Christian Roman Emperors. Who also enforced the decisions? Christian Roman Emperors. So yes. in 537 that was legit.

But it wasn't an Emperor who did so, it was his wife. And according to Salic law, women cannot rule.

 

[Alcadizzar19]

But it wasn't an Emperor who did so, it was his wife. And according to Salic law, women cannot rule.

You heard it here first folks, Frankish tribal customs are binding on the Augustus.

 

[Battle bunny]

But it wasn't an Emperor who did so, it was his wife. And according to Salic law, women cannot rule.

I wasn't aware that the Roman Empire used Salic law.

 

[Legionary Guard]

In the 8th century, Charlemagne expanded his realm, and theirs shrunk.

Ignoring the fact that, for the most part, the shrinking of the Byzantine Empire and the expansion of the Carolingian Empire were completely unrelated, and that Byzantium underwent a period of expansion at precisely the same time the Carolingian realm fragmented. Not taunting you about that fact would be the mark of a good man, but unfortunately for you I'm not a very good man, so HAHAHA SUCK IT Louis the Fat sucks, go Romanos Lekapenos!

Camel riding Turks

If you're going to insult and denigrate everyone who isn't German, at least do it right; the Turks were from the Asiatic steppes near the Caspian and Aral seas and *gasp* didn't ride camels.

and the HRE flourished as the strongest and richest nation on earth

Completely ignoring, of course, that for the last several centuries of its existence the Holy Roman Empire was a loose, often feuding, confederation of a couple hundred sovereign or semi-sovereign entities; and I'm sure Britain, France, the Ottoman Empire, and even Spain for a time could all contest the claims of both strongest and richest.

Don't be cynical, Salic or not, you understood my point. Rome never allowed women to rule and that was just like Salic law. Whether it was called something else, it isn't relevant.

I'm sure Ulpia Severina would agree that she wasn't ruler of Rome.

Y'know, the prejudice my European friends have for Germany is suddenly so much more understandable. Previously, I had dismissed it as lingering anti-WW2 sentiment, but if this is indicative of the wider German population... I mean, even American southerners aren't this fanboyish over the Confederacy. I live in the Deep South, so I'm qualified to say that with certainty. Hell, despite my liking of Byzantium, I freely admit it had faults (Excessively complicated things aren't called 'byzantine' today for nothing, after all). This guy though...

/DiplomacyScore2StrikesAgain

 

[ejnomad07]

But it wasn't an Emperor who did so, it was his wife. And according to Salic law, women cannot rule.

While your rebuttal is very silly. It was technically neither the Emperor or his wife and makes your point moot. Belisarius found the reason to remove him from office and did so. And again even the Vatican supports this view.

 

[Kaiserlicher Ritter]

Ignoring the fact that, for the most part, the shrinking of the Byzantine Empire and the expansion of the Carolingian Empire were completely unrelated.
If you're going to insult and denigrate everyone who isn't German, at least do it right; the Turks were from the Asiatic steppes near the Caspian and Aral seas and *gasp* didn't ride camels.
Completely ignoring, of course, that for the last several centuries of its existence the Holy Roman Empire was a loose, often feuding, confederation of a couple hundred sovereign or semi-sovereign entities; and I'm sure Britain, France, the Ottoman Empire, and even Spain for a time could all contest the claims of both strongest and richest.
I'm sure Ulpia Severina would agree that she wasn't ruler of Rome.

Y'know, the prejudice my European friends have for Germany is suddenly so much more understandable. Previously, I had dismissed it as lingering anti-WW2 sentiment, but if this is indicative of the wider German population... I mean, even American southerners aren't this fanboyish over the Confederacy. I live in the Deep South, so I'm qualified to say that with certainty. Hell, despite my liking of Byzantium, I freely admit it had faults (Excessively complicated things aren't called 'byzantine' today for nothing, after all). This guy though...

/DiplomacyScore2StrikesAgain

Well, I thought you were going to ignore me, weren't ya? What do you say about my last post? And I think Turks did ride camels, they had those nasty horse archers that bug me on Medieval II. And no, I'm not from "Germany", nor I have ever been from "Germany".

 

[Legionary Guard]

Well, I thought you were going to ignore me, weren't ya? What do you say about my last post? And I think Turks did ride camels, they had those nasty horse archers that bug me on Medieval II. And no, I'm not from "Germany", nor I have ever been from "Germany".

I lied to tick you off (It was kinda hard not to read it when I was deleting most of the quote), and considering that you said your native language was German,

including my native language German

I found it pretty safe to assume that you're either from Germany, Austria, or Switzerland. And let's face it: all three polities were once part of the HRE. Judging by the fact that you speak as if you're a true Roman Catholic, I'd guess Austria or Switzerland, or maybe Bavaria.

There's an incredibly obvious Hitler joke I could make here, but I won't go for it.

 

[Woifee]

Augustus my arse. Those Greek buffoons don't deserve to be called Augustus. Wake up to reality, Greeks have been falling lower and lower since Alexander. In the 8th century, Charlemagne expanded his realm, and theirs shrunk. In the High Middle Ages they lost to a bunch of Venetians and to Camel riding Turks, whereas the Holy Roman Empire became the center of human culture and knowlege. They couldn't even be an independent state for over 500 years, and the HRE flourished as the strongest and richest nation on earth. Nowadays they owe almost 200% of their GDP to the "Tribal Franks" you so much mock. They will never be relevant again, the only thing they have is the memory of their drunkard philosophers about three thousand years ago, and if they keep sinking like this, soon they will return to being a people colonised by another power.



Don't be cynical, Salic or not, you understood my point. Rome never allowed women to rule and that was just like Salic law. Whether it was called something else, it isn't relevant.

I hope you are just joking. You can't be serious.
It's not about deserving, it's about what actually happened.

If you want one center of human culture and knowledge, what actually never was the point, at this time you might find it somewhere in tbe muslim world.

Nowadays the HRE does bot exist!

It doesn't matter if women are allowed to rule or not, but they often still did. Their position as wife and a charismatic personality gave them in certain circumstances enough power and influence to rule.

And never go with the term never. Eternity can be so long.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

But it wasn't an Emperor who did so, it was his wife. And according to Salic law, women cannot rule.

I spend a few days animating meshes in Oblivion (shameless plug, coming soon) and I come back to this?

OK - let me lay it down for you.

1. Roman Law Trumps Salic Law within the Empire.

2. Salic Law as we understand it today is largely a legal construct that post-dates Theodora.

3. The Pope is subject to the Eastern Emperor, this is true even if you believe the Pope holds the Western Imperium (and delegates it to a temporal ruler) because the Eastern Emperor has been the only de jure Roman Emperor since the death of Julius Nepos. Donation of Constantine notwithstanding, because it's fake.

4. The Pope's legal position in the roman State, even today is that of "Pontifex Maximus" whilst that DOES (even today) make him an official of the the entity formally known as SPQR it's a religious office, not a temporal one, and is subject to temporal Imperium.

5. In the specific case the general Belisarius (who held delegated Imperium from Justinian) deposed the Pope.

6. Further, Justinian was Latin Roman Emperor who was part of the same church as the deposed Pope.

7. Finally - I wanted to add a seventh point because if you're going to do silly theology it should include constraining your argument in silly numerical format.

Now - returning to your advertised program of debate:

Perhaps Northern France (Aquitaine) should start out as Roman, at leas the coastal areas, and perhaps Visigothic should be moved from the Iberian to the Latin culture group, as they have more in common with the Romans and later Italians in some ways that they do with their own descendants.

 

[n00bypl4y3r]

They couldn't even be an independent state for over 500 years

The Eastern Roman Empire existed for a little over 1,100 years. A little less than a thousand years if you go by the date the last Western Roman Emperor died (around 980 years)

 

[Kaiserlicher Ritter]

The Eastern Roman Empire existed for a little over 1,100 years. A little less than a thousand years if you go by the date the last Western Roman Emperor died (around 980 years)

I'm talking about the Greeks, from 1453, that people couldn't even exist as a nation until after WWI.

 

[n00bypl4y3r]

I'm talking about the Greeks, from 1453, that people couldn't even exist as a nation until after WWI.

Greece achieved independence in 1822, not after WW1.

 

[Kaiserlicher Ritter]

Greece achieved independence in 1822, not after WW1.

Then why did the Greeks fight the Turks in 1919 and 1920? But even so, my points stands, they couldn't even exist as a nation, and nowadays they can't even handle their own economy without aid from "Mama" Merkel.

 

[n00bypl4y3r]

Then why did the Greeks fight the Turks in 1919 and 1920? But even so, my points stands, they couldn't even exist as a nation, and nowadays they can't even handle their own economy without aid from "Mama" Merkel.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence#
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919–22)
The latter, after WW1, was a war of aggression.

This is all just a google away. How much do you actually know about Greece?