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Sfan

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Well, I'm not sure this is so strange to have Roman Emperors of Greek culture. Let's not forget that "tu quoque mi fili"/"et tu Brute" was actually "καὶ σὺ τέκνον" according to Suetonius (etsi tradiderunt quidam Marco Bruto irruenti dixisse :καὶ σὺ τέκνον.")
Of course a lot of things have changed but I don't consider it that much shocking. I wonder when exactly Roman Emperors stopped having Greek as their first language, but there were at least some of them, so you could perfectly be the ERE, claim to be the true RE, and still be of Greek culture. I don't see any problem with that, especially if you blind and castrate people.
 
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kente

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about latin, i quote myself from another discussion in the eu4 forum (different topic anyway)

About the Latin language, it's hard to say when it was replaced. But you have to consider the Latin wasn't immutable, i studied Latin and the Latin in 200bc was different from the latin in 30ad (by the way the "classical" Latin is the Latin under Augustus). The latin language become, after the fall of Rom,e what is now called Vulgar Latin and around 12th/13th century it became italian dialect (and every region have a different dialect, but not so different as in Spain). The oldest writing document which is now considered some sort of italian is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronese_Riddle dated 8th/9th century

edit: i forgot, the Latin was used not only in Vatican, but also by everyone who could study at least until 14th/15th century. For example, Dante write a book in latin "De vulgari eloquentia" where he tried to give some dignity to the vulgar (while normally only the latin was considered the noble language)
 
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Sfan

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I kinda have to disagree because I find that what you describe is a bit too schematic. There wasn't classic latin, and then imperial latin, and then vulgar latin. Vulgar latin coexisted with both of them, it was spoken by the commoners. Vulgar latin, with the different substrates (Gaulish for France for instance) and superstrates (Frankish for France), evolved into dialects so typicals from several areas that they formed languages of their own.
I absolutely agree with the fact that there is a diachronic variation for latin (it evolved) and a diatopic one (different languages for different areas) which got even bigger after the fall of the WRE, but the most important thing is basically the diastratic difference between vulgar latins and other ones. There are two lines of continuity, the one of Classic Latin > Imperial Latin > Late Administrative Latin which was mostly written during the Middle Ages and the one of Early Vulgar Latin > Late Vulgar Latin > Proto-French/Spanish/Italian/Portuguese whose main feature is a simplified declension system early on, but which evolved fast.
This is still schematic because I haven't talked about Romanian for instance, but I think this is important to bear in mind that latin varied in diastratic, diatopic and diachronic ways.
 
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kente

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I kinda have to disagree because I find that what you describe is a bit too schematic. There wasn't classic latin, and then imperial latin, and then vulgar latin. Vulgar latin coexisted with both of them, it was spoken by the commoners. Vulgar latin, with the different substrates (Gaulish for France for instance) and superstrates (Frankish for France), evolved into dialects so typicals from several areas that they formed languages of their own.
I absolutely agree with the fact that there is a diachronic variation for latin (it evolved) and a diatopic one (different languages for different areas) which got even bigger after the fall of the WRE, but the most important thing is basically the diastratic difference between vulgar latins and other ones. There are two lines of continuity, the one of Classic Latin > Imperial Latin > Late Administrative Latin which was mostly written during the Middle Ages and the one of Early Vulgar Latin > Late Vulgar Latin > Proto-French/Spanish/Italian/Portuguese whose main feature is a simplified declension system early on, but which evolved fast.
This is still schematic because I haven't talked about Romanian for instance, but I think this is important to bear in mind that latin varied in diastratic, diatopic and diachronic ways.

thanks for the addition, i'm not an expert of the latin language, i just wrote what i remember from the high school
 

Fishy101

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Skane used to be part of Denmark. Do the Swedes living in Skane consider themselves Danes? If Sweden invades and conquers all of Denmark, does that make them Danes? Much like the Franks or the Lombards who don't really think of themselves as Romans, I don't think they even care to call themselves Danes. Only a few leaders want to call themselves Roman to lay claim to the residual glory of Rome. Do you honestly think they actually consider themselves Roman? How does the fact that Charlemagne conquered Gaul, Italia, Hispania give him more legitimacy as a roman? Does Hitler conquering much of Europe somehow give him more legitimacy? He proved himself strong so therefore he is right?

As for your point about the pope. Are you saying that any Roman citizen born in Rome has the right to crown the Roman emperor. That wasn't the case when Rome was the capital of the empire, and that is certainly not the case after it wasn't. The pope a subject of the Emperor? Lets be real here, after the fall of Rome, whoever succeeded to the Bishopric of Rome had nothing to do with the Roman empire.

My point about Romans moving to the ERE is just common sense. Imagine if you were a Roman citizen living in Rome just before its fall. You are a person of some means and have property in Rome and the countryside. Rome has been on the decline for decades if not centuries. You know from your estates in the countryside that the barbarians have gathered an army and they are about to attack Rome. What would you do? Do you liquidate what you can and take the first ship to Nicaea, where some of your relatives live? Maybe Constantinople with its bustling economy is a better choice? Or you stay and hope that you and your family will survive, the rape, murder, and pillage of the barbarians only to live under their thumb? I can understand that those who do not have the means may not be able to leave. But who would stay if they can leave? Even the poor probably tried to leave. I imagine many poor Romans probably died trying to get to the eastern empire.

Did any Romans live in Italy after the fall of the western empire? Yes of course. But they probably didn't care about whether they were Romans or not after a couple of decades. And after a century, they are just locals.

People with some knowledge of the Romans are Romans? So since we all use the Arabic numerals, we must all be Arabic. Oh wait, the Arabic numerals were actually from India, we must be Indians. Come! Please!

Addressing your last point. The Roman culture has been Hellenized since the beginning. Before Christianity, the Roman gods were Mars, Jupiter, Venus, all basically Greek gods with a different name. Much of their philosophy, math, science came from the Greek. As far as I can tell, the Roman culture was Greek culture with a twist.

Also, laws are meant to be changed. No one lives under the same set of laws forever. Laws improve or the environment change and force laws to change. Using the same set of laws or using modified laws does not give you more legitimacy either way.

I know its hard to accept, but the truth is you, your peers, your ancestors have all been lied to. The Roman Catholic church has no claim to being Roman. The HRE has no claim to the Roman empire. The people labeled by the the west as the Byzantines never called themselves that. They know they are the Romans. The fictional name of Byzantine Empire was spread by powerful and ambitious people. Namely western rulers and the Roman Catholic church.



Charlemagne claimed to be the Roman Emperor, his control of Gaul, Italia and parts of Illyria and Hispania gave him a better claim than many Western Emperors of the 5th Century and he may have held sway over more Romans than the Emperor in Constantinople, and he wouldn't have been the first Romanised Germanic to claim the Imperial Crown either. Given that the Throne of Constantinople was occupied by a woman and he was crowned by the Pope his claim was not baseless. However, that doesn't necessarily translate to his successors and it doesn't carry over after the Interregnum when there was no Emperor in the West.

This is the key point - Donation of Constantine aside - the Pope was a Roman Cleric, he was a Roman Citizen, born in Rome - elected by Romans who were at least nominally still subject to the Emperor.

As to people "moving to the ERE" (sic) good luck with that, even if you're a nobleman the best you might expect would be poverty or the army.





Visigoths were actually Romanised Germanics, unlike the Lombards the Visigoths had completely fused with their Roman subjects before the game's time period and operated under one Law. the Franks are a bit more complex but it's likely that whilst cities in Gaul retained some Roman character the farmlands were a greater admixture of Frankish and Roman, but then the Franks had been in control of Gaul without Roman contest for several centuries whilst the Lombards had been fighting the Romans for Italy and therefore had a vested interest in "protecting" Roman rights to blunt revolts.

Italia was also the centre of the Empire and one of the last provinces in the West to fall to invaders, making it more likely that a definatively "Roman" character would persist there.



I know it's been brought up before, that's part of why I wanted it to be discussed again - before the new patch lands.



Except that the people in Italy were living under Latin Roman Law and speaking Latin (not yet Italian) whilst the Romans in the East were living under a modified version of the Justian Code and speaking and writing in Greek, and they were becoming progressively Hellenised in their culture too.
 
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Mr. Habba

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I'd throw in my support for this for two simple reasons:

1. It gives us a cultures that lies in it's dying breath, which is always a fun start.

2. The way the initial suggestion phrases it, it would allow both Roman and Lombard to survive. Or at least, the player could - with a lot of effort - keep them alive. As it stands, Lombard is pretty much doomed.
 

WeissRaben

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I kinda have to disagree because I find that what you describe is a bit too schematic. There wasn't classic latin, and then imperial latin, and then vulgar latin. Vulgar latin coexisted with both of them, it was spoken by the commoners. Vulgar latin, with the different substrates (Gaulish for France for instance) and superstrates (Frankish for France), evolved into dialects so typicals from several areas that they formed languages of their own.
I absolutely agree with the fact that there is a diachronic variation for latin (it evolved) and a diatopic one (different languages for different areas) which got even bigger after the fall of the WRE, but the most important thing is basically the diastratic difference between vulgar latins and other ones. There are two lines of continuity, the one of Classic Latin > Imperial Latin > Late Administrative Latin which was mostly written during the Middle Ages and the one of Early Vulgar Latin > Late Vulgar Latin > Proto-French/Spanish/Italian/Portuguese whose main feature is a simplified declension system early on, but which evolved fast.
This is still schematic because I haven't talked about Romanian for instance, but I think this is important to bear in mind that latin varied in diastratic, diatopic and diachronic ways.
Diatopic dialects were almost unknown up to the last days of the Roman Empire, though - the state system was just too steeped in Latin to allow for reasonable differences between Roman areas. Vulgar Latin was almost completely simplified, rather than colored by substrata; as you say, the diastratic element was - by far - the most important one. Diatopic elements appeared after the fourth century in the West, and diachronic changes are... well, pretty obvious. I don't think any language can really expect to avoid them - English tries, hard, and the only end result is that spoken language is being ripped apart from written language (the Great Vowel Shift, as a linguist, makes me scream).

You are suggesting that the Lombards were "kicked out" but that isn't really true - their King was kicked out but it's a fiction to say that this meant all the Lombards were evicted, they weren't. Charlemagne absorbed other Germanic Kingdoms, he didn't genocide them. Modern Italian is less affected by the languages of its Germanic overlords because said Overlords were more thoroughly Romanised, the Ostagoths in partcular were likely essentially a Roman warrior-class who adhered to a different Confession as much as they were "Barbarians". Further, as a central Roman Province Italy had a greater density of Roman cities and retained a Roman aristocracy alongside its Germanic one.

Where do you think the Lombards are today?
I'm not suggesting complete eviction, of course, but it's a fact that the institutions the Lombards were seeding were truncated - in particular the institution of a solid Romano-Germanic kingdom, like it would happen in France and Spain. Quoting Montanelli:

Così finì l’Italia longobarda, e nessuno può dire se fu, per il nostro Paese, una fortuna o una disgrazia. Alboino e i suoi successori erano stati degli scomodi padroni, più scomodi di Teodorico, finché erano rimasti dei barbari accampati su un territorio di conquista. Ma oramai si stavano assimilando all’Italia e avrebbero potuto trasformarla in una Nazione, come i Franchi stavano facendo in Francia.
Ma in Francia non c’era il Papa. In Italia, sì
So ended Longobard Italy, and no one can say if it was, for our country, luck or a disgrace. Alboin and his successors had been awkward overlords, more awkward than Theodoric, as long as they had been barbarians camping in conquered lands. But by then they were being assimilated into Italy, and they could have changed it into a Nation, as the Franks were doing in France.
But there was no Pope in France. In Italy, yes.
 
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Sfan

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No need to be that assumptive, especially with this basis for your reflexion.

Basically what we are trying to do here is social and cultural history. As a first methodological rule to this discipline, any analogy should be avoided, especially with modern time, especially with what you would have done. Saying that Romans would have fled is irrelevant because you do not take the state of their minds into account. Because you seem to understand a good analogy I could perfectly tell you that this made perfect sense for any Jew to flee in front of Hitler, but most of them still stayed in Central Europe and France. Ans that this is not because you do not live in Israel that you can't consider yourself jewish. With this is mind this is obvious that a numerous amount of Romans considered themselves Romans and still stayed under the domination of foreign kings (well this is actually not that obvious because this is an analogy so you can say anything and its opposite with various analogies. But I think this one is a lot more striking that Skane or whatever with indian numbers).

The real question of this thread is this one: for how long did the majority of people consider themselves Romans in a certain area?

Edit for diatopic, answering to Weissraben: Meh, I semi-agree, but still. Caesar conquered Gallica around -50 and still 10% of french words come from there. They didn't reappear 500 years later out of the blue. You have to think there was an influence of Gaulish in the Roman language spoken in modern France during these 500 years, and thus a difference between Latin spoken in modern France and Latin spoken in modern Italy. But sure, everything was still pretty close until the collapse of the WRE.
 
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For convenience sake, I placed the start of the Latin divergence for my mod at 600. After that, Roman starts to shift to Ibero-Roman, Gallo-Roman, Italo-Roman, Afro-Roman, ect.
 

SigurdStormhand

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Diatopic dialects were almost unknown up to the last days of the Roman Empire, though - the state system was just too steeped in Latin to allow for reasonable differences between Roman areas. Vulgar Latin was almost completely simplified, rather than colored by substrata; as you say, the diastratic element was - by far - the most important one. Diatopic elements appeared after the fourth century in the West, and diachronic changes are... well, pretty obvious. I don't think any language can really expect to avoid them - English tries, hard, and the only end result is that spoken language is being ripped apart from written language (the Great Vowel Shift, as a linguist, makes me scream).

The Great Vowel Shift happened at a time before English was standardised - it's not a function of the ossification of the written language.

Actually - it's funny it makes you scream because it's only an issue if you obsess over the Latin sounds for letters. And if Emglish bothers you then Welsh should drive you insane, given that "Cymru" is pronounced "Kumri".

As to substata - as has been noted, there's evidence of Gallic influence in modern French and of other Italia languages in Italian cities distant from Rome - demonstrating that there was always substrata, but likely only for the Plebs and not for the Equestian and Senatorial class, or their close servants.

This trend can be seen later throughout Europe - modern English is London English - modern French is APrisian, but whilst the ruling class and their assistants spoke these languages the lower classes spoke highly localised dialects because - unlike the Elite - they only needed to be intelligible to their local masters, not to someone on the other side of the country.

Also - we know that later, in the centralised Byzantine Empire, the spoken Greek language diverged from Koine Greek during the Middle Ages to the extent that it became difficult to understand without training.

Classical Latin was a literary construct, there's little evidence it was spoken day to day outside the Senate or the Courts. Late Latin, likewise, is an administrative language, not an organically spoken one. In both cases it's likely that these were standardised languages taught in schools and spoken by educated people, but not by the masses. Vulgar Latin is not a development of Classical Latin but of Archaic Latin.

When I worked on the Europa Barbarorum Mod for Rome Total War the mod's motto was "Quisque Barbarus est Alio". Someone complained that this was incorrect according to Classical Latin and the proper declension was "alii" and not "alio". Our language experts went back through Vulgar and archaic Latin and were able to demonstrate the "alii" only appears in Classical Latin, but it would be declined "alio" in Vulgar and archaic Latin because the Dative and Ablative are the same.

And before our mention it - yes - in "pure" Classical Latin "est" would come at the end of the phrase, but it doesn't have to.

I'm not suggesting complete eviction, of course, but it's a fact that the institutions the Lombards were seeding were truncated - in particular the institution of a solid Romano-Germanic kingdom, like it would happen in France and Spain. Quoting Montanelli:

No, the Lombards sunk into the Italians - and doubtless had a linguistic impact, on pronunciation if not vocabulary.

I, frankly, do not think there is any question that the Romans in Charlemagne's time (those people in Latium under the Pope) considered themselves in every sense "Roman" and that is part of why Leo declared Charlemagne to be "Augustus" which is the original "primary" tile of a Roman Emperor, more integral to the position even than "Imperator".

The question is how Roman were they vs how Italian and I think that the argument comes out overwhelmingly that they were still very Roman and not yet very Italian - they still spoke Latin, thought of themselves as Roman and genuine Imperial rule was within living memory for many. Hell - the Pope before Leo was every bit a Roman, born and raised within the Empire.
 
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Dr Gonzo

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While I agree that the majority of the population in Italy would have seen themselves as Roman. I think if you add it in Italy you'd have to add Roman culture in parts of Gaul, Spain, the Mediterranean Islands, North Africa and possibly Wales.

At the same time, even if you restrict Roman-ness to Italy alone, I don't see it as really adding much real flavour. You would need to think about what to do about the Lombards/Langobards who dominated the peninsula poltically and militarily at the time. Making them into Romans would not make sense. You could have them ruling over Romans with a melting pot event converting them all to Italians but that would then mean the elimination of the Romans a short while into the game. Without the melting pot or if you left it too late for it to fire the Lombards would culture convert the Roman provinces meaning you'd be back where you started.

Even if the Romans freed themselves from Lombard rule and lived under their own language and culture with no Germanic interference (because a Frank is as bad as Lombard for retaining Roman-ness surely?) What would be the long term idea? Surely if you have French and Spanish developing then Italian should naturally develop too? In which case Italian surely covers both just as well as Roman and means that you don't have to add in yet more melting pot events.

TL;DR In order to be halfway plausible, Romans wouldn't last long before converting to Italians. In which case, why bother?
 

SigurdStormhand

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While I agree that the majority of the population in Italy would have seen themselves as Roman. I think if you add it in Italy you'd have to add Roman culture in parts of Gaul, Spain, the Mediterranean Islands, North Africa and possibly Wales.

At the same time, even if you restrict Roman-ness to Italy alone, I don't see it as really adding much real flavour. You would need to think about what to do about the Lombards/Langobards who dominated the peninsula poltically and militarily at the time. Making them into Romans would not make sense. You could have them ruling over Romans with a melting pot event converting them all to Italians but that would then mean the elimination of the Romans a short while into the game. Without the melting pot or if you left it too late for it to fire the Lombards would culture convert the Roman provinces meaning you'd be back where you started.

Even if the Romans freed themselves from Lombard rule and lived under their own language and culture with no Germanic interference (because a Frank is as bad as Lombard for retaining Roman-ness surely?) What would be the long term idea? Surely if you have French and Spanish developing then Italian should naturally develop too? In which case Italian surely covers both just as well as Roman and means that you don't have to add in yet more melting pot events.

TL;DR In order to be halfway plausible, Romans wouldn't last long before converting to Italians. In which case, why bother?

I actually covered all this in my OP, a few posts back I discussed Ostragoth vs Lombards and also Franks vs Lombards.

We talked a lot about Italy but I said Roman culture should also be present on the Adriatic, at least in Dalmatia and parts of Carinthia. In Hispania you have the Visigoths who, by this point, have fused with the Romans - making an essentially "Roman" population under what is mostly Roman Law.

The basic idea is to mimic what happens if you play Harold Godwinson in 1066 - there's a narrow path there to retain Saxon culture - I've done it - but it requires strenuous effort, principally forming Britannia before the "rot" gets too far. The idea here would be the same - the only playable Roman characters at the start would be Byzantine Empire vassals in Dalmatia and the Pope's vassal in Latium. In order to retain the Roman Culture in Italy you would need to bring it under the ERE/Roman Empire or form the Empire of Italia.

Even then one might notionally say those "Romans" will be speaking a language similar to Italian by 1453, but you get to have the Roman names and forms of dress etc. and you get to have that on your bucket list.

Right now the only way to do a Roman campaign plausibly is to pick Dalmatia and get up to Emperor - and then the ERE localises to just another Empire with normal "Western" titles and you wear "Western clothes" and get no retinue unit.

CKII is a game for historical fantasizing, and one fund fantasy scenario sees as Latin-speaking Roman become Emperor who moves the Capital to Romae and changes the official language back to Latin.
 
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ejnomad07

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I wrote about this back when Old Gods came out and with the date pushed back even farther I think my thread and points create a stronger merit for it.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ture-should-be-back-history-no-longer.731755/

I will update my words a bit for the new start date:

As some of you already know they have the latin (roman) culture in the game to be used for back history on the Roman Empire. I believe that it should be added into the game as the culture for the islands of Sardinia and Corsica for the CM start date for a couple of reasons and I hope you and Paradox consider my reasons and opt to make a change to the game.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_language#Classification_and_related_languages That's a comparison of the breakdown of modern languages from Latin. As you can see, these islands languages are extremely conservative and aren't even in the same ballpark as Italo-Western Romance would evolve into. That far back it is extremely reasonable for these islands to still speak and read latin much like other island nations like Iceland can still read Old Norse today.
Visual Image Below:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Romance-lg-classification-en.png

2: Dante Alighieri stated in De Vulgari Eloquentia (1303-1305) that Sardinians were not Italics and, furthermore, had never developed any Vulgar language of their own in his opinion, preferring to imitate Latin instead. Now if this is common thought in 1303 I think we can assume in 769 they have got to be pretty conservative latin in culture.

3: Unlike the mainland Italy, Roman rule was maintained in the area except for a small period of 78 years starting in 456 (Of which the Vandals in 78 years literally changed nothing even going so far as nominally acknowledging Constantinople and declaring themselves its deputies) Then it went back to the ERE's control for another 300 years. There is even some evidence that senior Byzantine administration in the Exarchate of Africa retreated to Cagliari following the final fall of Carthage to the Arabs in 697. The Muslim conquest of Sicily later in 827 and 902 cutoff communication with the E.R.E. but the culture and administration continued as is but independent after that time. At CM start date they are a part of the ERE and in communication with the ERE. Their culture should have a lot more in common with the Eastern Roman Empire as opposed to the Italian mainland obviously then because they have never known an administration other than Roman. Side observation: If the Muslims never take Sicily then there would be no reason for the Empire to ever write them off as an imperial province in 952 and consider them lost.

3: http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/sardinia,_italy Having escaped the barbarian conquests and mass settlement that reshaped the rest of Western Europe, early medieval Sardinian political institutions evolved from the millennium old Roman imperial structures with relatively little Germanic influence. Although they used hereditary lordships for the rulers, the old Roman imperial notion that separated personal title or honor from the state still persisted, so the state was not regarded as the personal property of the monarch as was common in later European feudalism. Like the imperial systems, they also preserved "semi-democratic" forms, with national assemblies.

Seems to me they should reflect this with a latin culture to suggest their backwater conserative style as opposed to the mainlands evolution in less conservative thinking for the time.

4. And I think this is the most important reason: For those that want to return Latin to the mainland or recreate a united Latin Roman Empire without cheating in the culture or using a ruler designer character this is the best way to do so while being historically viable.

Thanks OP for having this discussion brought up again.
 
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War_lord

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The problem is that if you call that culture "Roman" the average player is going to imagine extras from "I, Claudius", rather then the Sardinian Beverly Hillbillies they'd actually be.
 
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Woifee

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Should something dynamic and living like culture even be represented in the game if it's only possible in a static way?

German in 780s isn't the same as german in the 1400s.

And all the culture merge events are a bad way to simulate the changes. If the normans would have never taken england we still might call it England and take the peopele there as english while culture, food, traditions, language might be totally diferent.

Maybe Culture should just be gone in CK2 and EU4.

In CK2 they could replace it with languages a person speak and in EU4 with nationalism at a later tech level.

I know my view is unpopular but I don't care.
 
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Arsonik

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I would be happy if they gave the current Roman culture in game a retinue so that you could at least play them as a ruler designed character with some more flavor.
 
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Alcadizzar19

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The Greeks still called themselves Romans until the modern Greek state was formed.
Interesting anecdote: after Greek independence from the Turk an expedition was doing census taking in the Aegean islands and they were on a certain island in a certain village hanging out with the locals. A young local girl asked them who they were and why there were there, they responded they were representatives of the kingdom and they were here to see to the welfare of the Greek people. The young lady said, "That's interesting, we're not Greeks though, we are Romans."
 

Federalist girl

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The problem is that if you call that culture "Roman" the average player is going to imagine extras from "I, Claudius", rather then the Sardinian Beverly Hillbillies they'd actually be.

Okay, now we've really got to add them into the game because the notion of Latin-speaking yokels is amazing.
 
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