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hwoosh

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You know there is a cap for cavalary units, right ?

You mean the insufficient support penalty, right? Read my posts earlier in the thread.

As Poland/Commonwealth with an insane cav combat strength and lots of ducats to spare, there's nothing stopping you from deliberately using an entire combat width of cavalry backed by artillery, then bringing in infantry reinforcements on day 2 of the battle to avoid the penalty. That way you ensure all your cavalry units are actually fighting, and you'll demolish almost anything in your path.
 
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Grand Historian

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Though only loosely related, here are links to a few threads about how ridiculous artillery to cavalry ratios are and how underpowered late-game cavalry is and what can be done to fix them (because, really, along with Cultural Acceptance and Naval Battles, this has to be one of the most persisting problems with base EU4):

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-another-look-at-cavalry-and-cannons.886780/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...re-system-mainly-combat.869195/#post-19613808
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/military.869847/#post-19630089
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-cavalry-finally-become-less-marginal.887290/
 
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sterrius

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Eu 4 have a lot of problems with its land combat. Cavalary being "weak" is just a sympthon of a much large disease.

The main problem for me is artilhary.

The penalty for bringing tons of it is too weak. Making artilhary get double damage is nothing, people barely think twice and stay as close as possible to half art half inf + cav.

If bringing too much cavalary brigns a penalty to the troops having too many artilhary should also give a penalty, too many artilhary and you army is a turtle in battle, incapable of changing positions and always worried to defend those heavy and cumbersome weapons.

Of course with future military techs the limit would increase little by little until 1700-1800 where napoleon era tactics started to become more commom.

The game have 6 mil techs that improve artilhary beetween mil 7 and 25 (1730).

At mil 7 you would be able to only bring 3 arts for each 10 inf + cavs.
+1 art for each future mil tech that brings a new, smaller and faster artilhary to the field.

It would end with 9 arts for each 10 inf + cav at 1730. And 1 to 1 in 1780.

The penalty would be much more scary, and having only cav + art would be very problematic.


If you limit the amount of artilhary you can have in each army. cavalary will get a very strong but indirect buff. As they will be totally clear in most battles from artilhary fire, having less casualities in the first 3 days.
Another very small buff to cavalary would be them starting in the second row, going to the first row only on day 3. Of course protecting the flanks would be priority, so this would only protect cav on big battles.

With those 2 little buffs cavalary would become a lot more stronger without actually having to change the pips.
 
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grommile

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If you limit the amount of artilhary you can have in each army. cavalary will get a very strong but indirect buff. As they will be totally clear in most battles from artilhary fire, having less casualities in the first 3 days.
If you're picking your battles well and aren't trying to leverage a high cavalry ratio or a cavalry combat ability bonus, your cavalry will be totally clear from any casualties at all in many battles; modifications to the artillery rules are neither here nor there.

Conversely, in later years (where artillery truly comes into its own), infantry fire phases are also a holy terror for cavalry, because cavalry have terrible fire pips and lackluster fire modifiers.
 

sterrius

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reason why i recommended the cavalary to stay the first 3 days in the back. As they wait for the first meele phase.

No matter how good the infantary fire pip is, with cavalary in the back for the first days they will face a full might cavalary on day 4.

From day 7 onward of course everything goes back to the normal rules we know, as it should be. Cavalary on 1700+ was much more shock and terror and never something to stay in battle fighting like a infantary batallion as they had problems fighting the new rifles with ring bayonets (1697), making every rifle also a pike, giving infantary a lot of options to fight cavalary in close combat.
 

Comrade110

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You mean the insufficient support penalty, right? Read my posts earlier in the thread.

As Poland/Commonwealth with an insane cav combat strength and lots of ducats to spare, there's nothing stopping you from deliberately using an entire combat width of cavalry backed by artillery, then bringing in infantry reinforcements on day 2 of the battle to avoid the penalty. That way you ensure all your cavalry units are actually fighting, and you'll demolish almost anything in your path.

So you mean bring 30 cav backed by 30 arti, followed by lets say 20 inf, so during shock phase cavalary deals heavy dmg to the enemy and on fire phase the inf comes into battle ?

Ok man I justed tested it, 40 CW, so I used 40 cav+40arti, during shock phase (had 6 shock leader) the enemy was taking 6500 loses per tick and that was low roll even, with 9 roll... thank you good Sir :D
 
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Jaol

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High disc and CA making a flanked back row better? I can't fathom a situation where CW is 20+ and a 10/0/10 is better than a 20/0/0 against an opponent running at least 20 infantry, even if you're Ryazan, and never mind the cost difference. You would need that back row damage to equate to more than a comparable-size front row would deal AND still more to justify the extra damage taken in return from being flanked. I don't think the math exists because it's absurd in the first place. I certainly welcome you to prove me totally wrong though if I am.
Remember in a 10/0/10 vs. 20/0/0 situation, not all of the longer front rank get to actually participate in combat. Given an INF flanking range of 1, only 12 regiment are going to be able to attack at a time. So, you're balancing the advantage of outflanking vs. the extra damage from back rank ART + the extra defensive pips it gives the INF in front of it.
 

Tacticus101

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Remember in a 10/0/10 vs. 20/0/0 situation, not all of the longer front rank get to actually participate in combat. Given an INF flanking range of 1, only 12 regiment are going to be able to attack at a time. So, you're balancing the advantage of outflanking vs. the extra damage from back rank ART + the extra defensive pips it gives the INF in front of it.

The comparison is not 10-0-10 vs 20-0-0 though (which would still lose), it is whether a 10-0-10 can outperform a 20-0-0 army when fighting against another 20-0-0 army. In that case the 10 cannons have to deal more damage than the 10 extra infantry would be dealing whilst providing enough defensive bonus' to account for the additional casualties from the increased length of the battle and flanking.

Also, the cannon army would be a great deal more expensive.
 
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hwoosh

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So you mean bring 30 cav backed by 30 arti, followed by lets say 20 inf, so during shock phase cavalary deals heavy dmg to the enemy and on fire phase the inf comes into battle ?

That's basically it, except the inf never "comes into battle" in the sense of actually fighting. Because you filled up your combat screen on the first day of battle, the only way your inf actually would get on the front line is if one of your cav units lost all morale and routed. But because your superpowered cav are absolutely roasting the enemy, that's fairly unlikely to happen. (Pay closer attention to the combat screen next time, and this will become obvious.)
 
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yerm

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Remember in a 10/0/10 vs. 20/0/0 situation, not all of the longer front rank get to actually participate in combat. Given an INF flanking range of 1, only 12 regiment are going to be able to attack at a time. So, you're balancing the advantage of outflanking vs. the extra damage from back rank ART + the extra defensive pips it gives the INF in front of it.

We're not talking what works here, we're talking about what's best. Of course a 10/0/10 can obliterate an under-tech 20/0/0. But really, a 10/0/0 can beat a 20/0/0 with a disc/tactics lead, you don't need either. What you need to show is that adding 10 arty to the back row will create a better outcome than adding 10 inf to the front row. I don't see how this works out. In fact, the statement "not all of the front rank get to actually participate in combat" is very misleading because they might participate when the middle rows get nuked unless morale was nuked as well. The 10/0/10 doesn't necessarily win when it kills the 10 middle inf of the 20/0/0 it's fighting, there's still 10 more lined up and waiting even if only 2 of that 10 are flanking in the meantime.
 
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Comrade110

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That's basically it, except the inf never "comes into battle" in the sense of actually fighting. Because you filled up your combat screen on the first day of battle, the only way your inf actually would get on the front line is if one of your cav units lost all morale and routed. But because your superpowered cav are absolutely roasting the enemy, that's fairly unlikely to happen. (Pay closer attention to the combat screen next time, and this will become obvious.)

Yeah I got it now, inf is tehre only to remove penalty, thanks :)
 

atwix

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You mean the insufficient support penalty, right? Read my posts earlier in the thread.

As Poland/Commonwealth with an insane cav combat strength and lots of ducats to spare, there's nothing stopping you from deliberately using an entire combat width of cavalry backed by artillery, then bringing in infantry reinforcements on day 2 of the battle to avoid the penalty. That way you ensure all your cavalry units are actually fighting, and you'll demolish almost anything in your path.

that is by far the best advice in entire thread. This works with any nation really... Micromanaging makes you win battles, along with understanding of combat width and unit type strength at what military tech level.

If you do this tactic, your entire cavalry will be on front row, and a good shock roll can decide battle there and then.
 
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Jaol

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We're not talking what works here, we're talking about what's best. Of course a 10/0/10 can obliterate an under-tech 20/0/0. But really, a 10/0/0 can beat a 20/0/0 with a disc/tactics lead, you don't need either. What you need to show is that adding 10 arty to the back row will create a better outcome than adding 10 inf to the front row. I don't see how this works out.
Yes, exactly. Is 10/0/10 better or worse than 20/0/0? Or to put it differently, are the benefits of the artillery in the 10/0/10 army are greater than the benefit of the extra width of a 20/0/0 army (assuming your opponent is 20 wide).

I don't think it's possible to completely run the number on this, since some parts of the combat math aren't fully documented (e.g. how exactly ART defends the unit in front of it, how units in the battle but not actually participating in combat get morale damage). But as a rough example:

At tech 20 INF is Fire[3/2], Shock[3/2], Morale[3/2], and ART is F[3/2], S[1/1], M[3/2]. So for fire and morale, compared to a single INF regiment, an INF+ART combo has an extra 50% defense and 50%+ more offence (50% when the units are both at full strength, more if the INF has taken casulties); for shock, the bonus is ~ 25% on defense and 15% on offence. So, very back of the envelop, you can say a 10/0/10 army is 50% stronger on both attack and defense vs. a 10/0/0 army. (At the beginning of a battle when both are at full strength it's a little less; as both front lines take casualties the advantage become bigger because the ART keeps attacking at full strength and by limiting damage to the INF).

Another rough way to think about it is that the ART is effectively adding 50% of its pips to the INF unit in front of it (ART attacks with full pips but 50% strength, and adds 1/2 of its pips on defense). At tech level 20, that's 6 pips. So you go from 15 pip INF to 21 pips. Actual 21 pip INF is only available at tech level 28. So a 10/0/10 tech 20 army is roughly comparable to a 10/0/0 tech 28 army. (The 10/0/10 army should actually be better, as the art won't take casulties in combat, but it's in the same general ballpark).​

So, a tech 20 "Narrow" 10/0/10 army is about 50% stronger across its width compared to a same tech "Wide" 20/0/0 army. At lower techs it's a little weaker, at higher techs a little stronger (since ART pips are on a steeper slope than INF). But at the same time, a narrow army is open to flanking attacks on the outside of its line and will have to be able to defeat enemy regiments in sequence as new regiments move in from the flanks to fill holes in the center of the line. The question then is, is that extra strength in the center from a full back line in the "Narrow" army more valuable than the extra width in the "Wide" amry?

Let's think about how each would perform in a battle vs. a 20/0/0 army. In the case of a Wide vs. Wide battle, it's clear the two sides are equally matched, assuming same tech, modifiers, etc.. In the case of a Narrow vs. Wide batttle it's more complex. Think of the battle having 2 phases:

In the beginning of a battle between the two, the wide army has 2 units able to attack from a flanking position. These do 100% damage while taking 0 casulties. Again very back of the envelop, let's say that's roughly the same as a 1 on 1 matchup with +100% offence and +50% defence. So we can think of this phase of the battle as a 10/0/0 vs. 10/0/10 battle, where the narrow army regiments all have +50% on offence and defence and the outer 2 wide regiments have +100% offence and +50% defence. In this phase, the narrow army clearly has a big advatnage over the wide one--not only does it have an advantage in the central 8 of the unit-vs-unit matchups, but the advantage it has there is bigger than the advantage the wide army gets in the outer 2 matchups.

In the second phase of the battle, after the central units of the wide army are destroyed, replacements come in from the flanks, and you again have a 10/0/0 vs. 10/0/10 battle. Now the key is the relative strength of the individual regiments. All the previously flanking regiments in the wide army will be at full strength, although they will have taken some morale damage. The INF in the narrow army, on the other hand, will have taken casualties and morale damage. If these regiments are down to ~ 50% strength, then the battle is roughly equal--the narrow INF will be attacking with 500 men, but the full strength ART behind them will be attacking at 50% (i.e. as if it had 500 men), which combines to the same as a full strength INF regiment for fire/morale damage; shock damage will be lower than a full strength INF, since ART is worse than INF in this phase, but they will still have +50% defense). Wherever the narrow army's INF regiments are below half strength, then the wide army now is at an advantage; wherever they are above half strength, the narrow army has an advantage.​

So, in theory, a narrow army could be better than a wide one, provided the pips/modifier/etc. are such that a INF/ART combo kills/breaks the morale of an enemy INF regiments before your own troops take enough casualties to bring them down to half strength and without losing, say, 50% of your morale. In practice, I'm not sure you what happens, but I suspect that at some tech levels this is the case.

Multipliers like disc/combat ability would push the balance further in favor of narrow, since they stack with the effective bonus from the ART+INF combo. E.g. going back to tech 20 example, where an INF+ART combo is roughly the same as a 1500 man INF regiment on offense, +20% discipline/CA is effectively a +80% bonus to attack (1.5*1.2) for a narrow army, vs. +20% for the wide one.

Anyway, I haven't tested this at all, but it seems to me that there should be some situations where it is better to build a 10/0/10 army than a 20/0/0 one.
 
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Comrade110

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that is by far the best advice in entire thread. This works with any nation really... Micromanaging makes you win battles, along with understanding of combat width and unit type strength at what military tech level.

If you do this tactic, your entire cavalry will be on front row, and a good shock roll can decide battle there and then.

Man I tried it vs french army, they had like 26k inf, 15k cav and 25 art or so, during shock phase (I had full 40 cav width there on frontline) I took 254 casualties he took 8096 each tick. I have no words, granted I got lucky dice roll but still.....
 

atwix

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Man I tried it vs french army, they had like 26k inf, 15k cav and 25 art or so, during shock phase (I had full 40 cav width there on frontline) I took 254 casualties he took 8096 each tick. I have no words, granted I got lucky dice roll but still.....

until they change/patch this I guess.

In 1.9.2 and before that micromanaging was king, and now even in 1.14 you can still use micromanaging to win wars.

Is 10/4/10 a terrible army composition? During first battle round it is.

Eu4 micromanaging players still have a BIG advantage versus enemy armies/rebels in singleplayer.