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StarSword

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I agree that empire stability is a huge problem (even moreso for players than for the AI; every time you form an empire it's pretty much GG, and all the fun and challenge just evaporates from your game), but I really don't think the big Muslim realms are uniquely powerful or stable. In my first Conclave game, I started as one of the Welsh petty kings at the Old Gods start. By the time I was done wrapping up the British Isles, in the late 11th century—this was literally before I'd interacted in any way with a Muslim realm—the Muslims were being whipped by the Christian AI everywhere from Gibraltar to the Caspian Sea. Francia and Italy control most of North Africa (Francia has half of Iberia; Italy holds almost all of de jure Egypt), the Byzantines are halfway to Esfahan, and the strongest Muslim realm remaining is Abyssinia, of all places (Sunni Ethiopians). Every Muslim realm in the game is smaller, and has a weaker military, than Great Moravia. (It is, I must admit, an unusually badass Great Moravia.)

Yeah, that's just one game, but it's also just the most extreme example of a general trend I've seen in my recent games. I've only had one game since Conclave in which the Muslims have fared unusually well (that one, of course, is when I tried to play the Bavandids—go figure).
The only reason the Umayyads mostly stayed south of the Pyrenees in my Ireland game was because I was personally intervening to defend Toulouse and Aquitaine as the Ard Rí na hÉireann. And they still jumped up the coast a couple times when I was distracted elsewhere.

I do sometimes see empires fall apart: an AI custom empire that appeared in my Ireland game is now a third its original size, courtesy of constant Norse and nomad harassment. But the Umayyads just don't have any significant opposition until roughly when the Catholic holy orders form.
 

kmh42

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I've got a "Kurds restore the Persian Empire and found the Yazidi Sheikhdom" game going right now (pretty much just to flip the bird at Daesh). Personally I think the biggest issue in the current version is the way NAPs interact with polygamy: just because of how many siblings and children any of my shahs have, it's super-easy to tie my entire realm up in knots and make it virtually impossible for my vassals to form an effective faction no matter how much they hate me. Christians just cannot match the Muslim ability to form marriage alliances.
I recommend you the Imperial Government typ in CK+ and HIP. I did not play it but I read the change logs and it sounds awesome. And it gets rid of Viceroys.
 

Jaang

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If you know how to set up a stable realm in Conclave, it really doesn't matter if you're an Empire or a Kingdom until you get large enough to control all of Europe.


Basically, they set up vassals to basically be insane, with a -40 opinion malus if they aren't on your council, only a +15 opinion bonus for being content, and only a -50 malus for killing their parent, so that basically, murdering someone's father in cold blood makes them only *slightly* more angry than if you don't put them on your council. Basically, they're all insane.


To "balance out" the new mass-insanity of vassals, they added the non-aggression pact upon marriage or betrothal mechanic.


So, now if you know what you're doing, you simply won't have any revolts, ever, unless you get unlucky several times in a row.


I'm currently playing a game (as Muslim) from a start as the High Chieftess of Kiev, and 400 years in, I control Ruthenia, Poland, Lithuania, Rus, Finland, Crimea, and half of Perm. That's a realm size around 300, with a capital at Kiev, a personal demesne of 10, and with vassal levies cranked up to almost the top. My current ruler's grandfather created the Empire of Russia title.


I have seven (7) vassals above baron level. Six of them are Dukes, and one was a Duke who just got given the Viceroyalty of Finland, so I guess he's sort of a King now.


Basically, you set up the guys who you want to be dukes with a good base demesne of their own, so they can easily smash any revolts from beneath them, and give them four or five duchy titles each. this gives them enough personal troops to smash revolts, and enough levy troops to effectively play whack-a-mole with the near-constant Viking raids without your involvement.


Then you pump out babies like mad, and set up a few of your sons as bonus baby farmers, and marry into every duke's family. Basically, you want the current Duke AND his heir married into your family, with enough spare children (or adults) floating around so you could do it again TWICE on very short notice. One trick is what I call "the double betrothal." You betrothe a newborn to some 65-year-old, which cements an alliance for x number of years. He'll die long before the newborn is marriage age, so when he dies, you betrothe her again, to his son or grandson, and the alliance continues.


Now you're revolt-proof. You can literally arrest and execute half the realm, get 250 tyranny, have people warning their children that you'll show up and eat them if they ignore their vegetables, and you're still revolt-proof. The downside is that your income drops sharply if everyone despises you, so don't get too kill-crazy, or you'll be too poor to keep your personal troops mobilized in the field for too long.


Basically, it looks like they wanted to make blobbing more difficult with the Conclave changes, but basically they made it much, much easier, as long as you change your play style to fit the new game mechanics of "stark-raving mad insane vassals who'll murder for a chair on the un-empowered council, but who can't attack in-laws at all for any reason."


Now, this same play style is available to pretty much anyone. Muslims with multiple wives, and Dharmic-Religion and Pagan folks with concubinage have it the easiest, but even Christians can pump out enough kids if they pick lustfull wives, say "yes" to the girls in the woods if they have hunting focus, or simply take seduction focus for five years or so to get 3 or 4 lovers... except for the fact that Christians are often stuck with Gavelkind, which destroys realms.


TLDR: the reason Muslim realms appear more stable now is that a Muslim ruler with 20 kids and Open Succession thanks his lucky stars that he has so many kids to secure alliances with, while a Christian ruler with 20 kids and Gavelkind succession curses his "bad luck" at having 20 kids who will rip his realm to shreds.


The root cause is Gavelkind leads to weak realms and Open Succession leads to powerful realms, which is 100% historical.
 
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kmh42

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If you know how to set up a stable realm in Conclave, it really doesn't matter if you're an Empire or a Kingdom until you get large enough to control all of Europe.


Basically, they set up vassals to basically be insane, with a -40 opinion malus if they aren't on your council, only a +15 opinion bonus for being content, and only a -50 malus for killing their parent, so that basically, murdering someone's father in cold blood makes them only *slightly* more angry than if you don't put them on your council. Basically, they're all insane.


To "balance out" the new mass-insanity of vassals, they added the non-aggression pact upon marriage or betrothal mechanic.


So, now if you know what you're doing, you simply won't have any revolts, ever, unless you get unlucky several times in a row.


I'm currently playing a game (as Muslim) from a start as the High Chieftess of Kiev, and 400 years in, I control Ruthenia, Poland, Lithuania, Rus, Finland, Crimea, and half of Perm. That's a realm size around 300, with a capital at Kiev, a personal demesne of 10, and with vassal levies cranked up to almost the top. My current ruler's grandfather created the Empire of Russia title.


I have seven (7) vassals above baron level. Six of them are Dukes, and one was a Duke who just got given the Viceroyalty of Finland, so I guess he's sort of a King now.


Basically, you set up the guys who you want to be dukes with a good base demesne of their own, so they can easily smash any revolts from beneath them, and give them four or five duchy titles each. this gives them enough personal troops to smash revolts, and enough levy troops to effectively play whack-a-mole with the near-constant Viking raids without your involvement.


Then you pump out babies like mad, and set up a few of your sons as bonus baby farmers, and marry into every duke's family. Basically, you want the current Duke AND his heir married into your family, with enough spare children (or adults) floating around so you could do it again TWICE on very short notice. One trick is what I call "the double betrothal." You betrothe a newborn to some 65-year-old, which cements an alliance for x number of years. He'll die long before the newborn is marriage age, so when he dies, you betrothe her again, to his son or grandson, and the alliance continues.


Now you're revolt-proof. You can literally arrest and execute half the realm, get 250 tyranny, have people warning their children that you'll show up and eat them if they ignore their vegetables, and you're still revolt-proof. The downside is that your income drops sharply if everyone despises you, so don't get too kill-crazy, or you'll be too poor to keep your personal troops mobilized in the field for too long.


Basically, it looks like they wanted to make blobbing more difficult with the Conclave changes, but basically they made it much, much easier, as long as you change your play style to fit the new game mechanics of "stark-raving mad insane vassals who'll murder for a chair on the un-empowered council, but who can't attack in-laws at all for any reason."


Now, this same play style is available to pretty much anyone. Muslims with multiple wives, and Dharmic-Religion and Pagan folks with concubinage have it the easiest, but even Christians can pump out enough kids if they pick lustfull wives, say "yes" to the girls in the woods if they have hunting focus, or simply take seduction focus for five years or so to get 3 or 4 lovers... except for the fact that Christians are often stuck with Gavelkind, which destroys realms.


TLDR: the reason Muslim realms appear more stable now is that a Muslim ruler with 20 kids and Open Succession thanks his lucky stars that he has so many kids to secure alliances with, while a Christian ruler with 20 kids and Gavelkind succession curses his "bad luck" at having 20 kids who will rip his realm to shreds.


The root cause is Gavelkind leads to weak realms and Open Succession leads to powerful realms, which is 100% historical.
Sorry but only your last two passages were worth reading. The rest was just a "how to play conclave" stuff and has nothing to do with this thread.

Actually I don't even know what your point is? Do you think NAP are part of the problem (When yes why your story about NAP and kids?) or are they don't. Because your 'root cause' was the case long before conclave and 2.5.x. But never mind.

We could combine everything in this thread to this formula
NAP + open succesion + geographic + Empire tier + No enemy threat= OP Umayyad
Can when agree on that?
 

Jaang

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Sorry but only your last two passages were worth reading. The rest was just a "how to play conclave" stuff and has nothing to do with this thread.

Actually I don't even know what your point is? Do you think NAP are part of the problem (When yes why your story about NAP and kids?) or are they don't. Because your 'root cause' was the case long before conclave and 2.5.x. But never mind.

We could combine everything in this thread to this formula
NAP + open succesion + geographic + Empire tier + No enemy threat= OP Umayyad
Can when agree on that?




Well, it depends on what you mean by "OP Umayyad." I've never seen the AI Umayyads actually conquer all of Francia or Lombardy. They usually just either hold on to what they've got , beat up on the Mauritanians, and nibble around the edges of France/Brittany/Provence, or they collapse a few hundred years in once the Christian Holy Orders show up and somebody grabs Andalusia in a crusade.


I mean, sure, compared to the Karlings (or worse, the Rashtrakutras), just managing to keep your realm from splintering over the course of 300 years is pretty overpowered ;)


But this is about Gavelkind vs. Open. An Open Succession Kingdom is just as stable as an Open Succession Empire. There is literally no difference in stability, other than a few minor maluses when people "desire the kingdom of x."


All Empire tier titles do in regards to stability is keep AI multi-kingdom realms together when they're still under gavelkind.
 
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kmh42

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Well, it depends on what you mean by "OP Umayyad."
Maybe the only problem is our expectations. Many of us expect the Umayyads to explode, like they did in real history. This expectation is not present at the HRE or ERE, because they didn't explode rather then slowly conquered by enemies over decades or just decreased is structure.
Not talking about the Deccan Empire/Rashtrakutras because nearly nobody cares about them and I have no knowledge about them.
I've never seen the AI Umayyads actually conquer all of Francia or Lombardy
I rarely see this by myself, becasue I play mostly later start-dates since 2.5.2. Mostly on screenshots by other forum members in complain threads. But the amount of threads about this topic over the year indicates some sort of a problem.
But this is about Gavelkind vs. Open. An Open Succession Kingdom is just as stable as an Open Succession Empire. There is literally no difference in stability, other than a few minor maluses when people "desire the kingdom of x."
A Empire tier add stability with more Vassal and demesne Limit, expanded de jure land (fewer independence factions), more prestige for the ruler and prevent Gavelkind split like you said.
 
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StarSword

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Don't forget, they also get bonus opinion from both prestige and piety, unlike everyone else that only can benefit from one of these.
They also have to pay piety for their Invasion and County Conquest CBs, not to mention to deal with decadent relatives.
 

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They also have to pay piety for their Invasion and County Conquest CBs, not to mention to deal with decadent relatives.
In the 2.5.*+ patches, the opinion from prestige and piety maxes out at 10 each, instead of the 20 it used to be. However, to get that +10, the amount of prestige and piety needed remain the same. Specifically, 2000 prestige and 500 piety. 500 piety is not at all hard to get, especially for those of higher rank, as vassals with mosques all contribute piety to their liege once they start getting built up.

And as for those costs, telling someone to shape up costs 100, the county conquest is 50, and the invasion, at 1000, is the only one that costs a significant amount.
 

Arsonik

Zaximus Rex
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They also have to pay piety for their Invasion and County Conquest CBs, not to mention to deal with decadent relatives.

And to change crown laws.
 
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