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Arsonik

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I've got a "Kurds restore the Persian Empire and found the Yazidi Sheikhdom" game going right now (pretty much just to flip the bird at Daesh). Personally I think the biggest issue in the current version is the way NAPs interact with polygamy: just because of how many brothers, sisters, and children any of my shahs have, it's super-easy to tie my entire realm up in knots and make it virtually impossible for my vassals to form an effective faction no matter how much they hate me. Christians just cannot match the Muslim ability to form marriage alliances.

I agree that is probably the biggest factor. I've been playing a lot more of Republics since Conclave so that I can somewhat more safely have tons of children for NAP's. Even as a Feudal ruler I try to make more kids as my realm expands. I'd rather risk a lesser kinsman inheriting then deal with infighting constantly.
 
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kmh42

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Muslims have always been like that. The things that are supposed to make them prone to collapse (Decadence, Shi'a Uprisings) don't work very well and are offset by several limitations on factionalism:
  • Internally:
    • No ability to change succession style without Full Council Authority = no ability to faction for elective succession.
    • The sheer number of claimants and pretenders generated by agnatic open succession means you'll frequently have many vassals supporting several different claimants with no one claimant getting enough support to deliver an ultimatum.
    • Polygamy means tons of pacts with vassals, making factionalism harder. This is the only factor new since 2.5.
  • Externally:
    • Iqta = much higher tax income especially compared to Catholic rulers.
    • Charlie almost never manages to make Francia or the HRE and usually breaks up by gavelkind, meaning the only people who can reliably stand up to the Umayyads are the Lombards.
    • The things that made the Goths in Spain not worth the trouble to the RL Umayyads (attrition too high, pillage too low) aren't well-simulated.
Really? Let's go through them, talking only about how they apply to the Charlie start.
  • Sayyid: +5 coreligionist opinion is functionally meaningless, and since it's passed patrilineally and Muslims can't matrimarry, it's next to impossible to acquire if you don't start with it (though both the major Sunni blobs have it).
  • Mirza: +5 coreligionist opinion is functionally inconsequential and only applies to one generation.
  • Hajjaj: Same as Christian Pilgrim, though more common since it's on the Intrigue tab instead of requiring Theology focus.
  • Mujahid: Same as Catholic Crusader and can't be acquired until jihads are unlocked.
  • Ashari/Mutazilite: Tends to cancel itself out overall, since you get +25 same trait, -25 opposite trait, and the event to convince a vassal to switch is pretty rare (75 years into my Kurdistan game across four rulers and I've only gotten it once).
  • Faqih: Only available at random.
The thing I did forget was moral authority. The Sunnis default with all five of their holy sites under full or partial control (I think the direct controller of Mecca or Medina, I forget which, is actually a Shi'ite in Charlie, but they're vassals of the Abbasids) so heresy outbreaks are really rare. Whereas the Catholics are missing Santiago and Jerusalem and often lose control of Rome to the Vikings, so it's much more common for big waves of Waldensians, Frats, and Cathars to cause serious damage.

EDIT: Factual corrections.

Interesting list of why Muslim are slightly OP, but are they?
All these abilities affect all (Sunni) Muslim realms, except the Sayyid trait, but I don't see any other Muslim realm so stable like the Umayyads. IMHO not even the Abbasids are so stable in the last two patches (Remember one year ago there were plenty of threads about stable Abbasids. I don't see them so often now. Even the Seljuks tend to break apart at one time (mostly because they are not able to form an Empire [becasue of there non Persian heritage]). The discussion mostly goes about the Umayyads).
I am FIX orientated. So when we suggest to weakening the Muslim faction as a hole we weakening ALL Muslim realms. I don't think we want that. So let's concentrate on the Umayyad (Empire).
769:
External: There are no real enemies to counter them. Asturias is weak and tend to break up becasue they create multiple kingdoms, mainland Europe is busy with itself (looking at you Charlie), and Mauretania is full of easy and weak pick ups of Muslim heretics. I don't think anything of those surrounding factors is going to change (Except I hope North Africa get a buff and AI improvements to counter border gore of Karling realms).
Internal: The Sultan starts out with a huge de jure Kingdom, Andalusia, and a decent demesne of 6 counties. Non of his vassals has so much demesne and they are all pretty balanced out. Two of his vassals are also his sons and the most opinion hits comes from county claims of duke vassals, which are easily deal with. The Sultan can create 6 Duchies and give them away for further opinion bonuses. They are able to form the Empire very quickly which gives them further bonuses. And because they never create another King title the realm never gets split up and lives forever.
867:
The situation did not change dramatically. Only Mauretania is united but with a weak shia Sultan, which is also a easy pickup.

All of that look somewhat historically in my point of view. They were a strong and stable state with plenty of resources. The only ahistorical in my PoV is e their expansion. Yes the Iberian Muslims attacked Aquitaine but mostly only for loot and not for conquest. Before Charlie they don't considered christian Europe as a threat or as valuable land to hold.

I would recommend a Empire nerf. In the moment the Sultan creates e_Hispania they are in fact unbeatable and spil into everywhere. Hispania is a OP Empire becasue of it's vast amount of land. No matter which religion they have. I many of my games (2.4.5) they regularly switch to yazidi and were still a power horse.
 

StarSword

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I did suggest one solution for the "not worth the trouble" issue in another thread. Maybe give Visigoths defensive attrition as a cultural feature. Matter of fact most of the game cultures could use some fleshing out, like making tanistry free for Celts.

Another thing would be to give revolts a buff. I do fairly frequently see revolts against the Umayyads... of like two emirs versus the whole empire (probably resisting iqta title revocation). They inevitably get roflstomped.
 
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kmh42

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I did suggest one solution for the "not worth the trouble" issue in another thread. Maybe give Visigoths defensive attrition as a cultural feature. Matter of fact most of the game cultures could use some fleshing out, like making tanistry free for Celts.

Another thing would be to give revolts a buff. I do fairly frequently see revolts against the Umayyads... of like two emirs versus the whole empire (probably resisting iqta title revocation). They inevitably get roflstomped.
That only shields Asturias for a certain amount of time. Umayyads still spills into Mauritania and Aquitaine
 

Dragatus

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I wonder if perhaps the game would be better off without empires. As far as I know none of the empires in the game at any possible start date have any king tier vassals and they could all be simulated perfectly well by a kingdom tier title.
 
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JohnKR

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I wonder if perhaps the game would be better off without empires. As far as I know none of the empires in the game at any possible start date have any king tier vassals and they could all be simulated perfectly well by a kingdom tier title.

Exactly that!...Empires working as a tier iv was the worst decision CK team took..of course it was some people that demanded and destroyed the game so they could paint the map their color.

Kings are independent rulers. They can't be vassals of anyone. Empires are just a prestigious title tied to religion most of a time (like a protector of this religion). There is no historical example of emperors having kings as vassals. Not even one.
The only example was Bohemia. But even that is not true. Bohemia was semi-independent depending who was the emperor and most of the times the Emperor did not ask anthing from Bohemia. All other vassals of all the Emperors in the world where Duke level vassals.

So it's ok for one, not even totally true vassal king make empires a tier iv title? No. Not at all. It's a bad decision in terms of historicity and gameplay.

(they could at least make vassal kings like a suzerain to the empire or an ally, or like tribal rulers call their vassals)
 
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kmh42

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Exactly that!...Empires working as a tier iv was the worst decision CK team took..of course it was some people that demanded and destroyed the game so they could paint the map their color.

Kings are independent rulers. They can't be vassals of anyone. Empires are just a prestigious title tied to religion most of a time (like a protector of this religion). There is no historical example of emperors having kings as vassals. Not even one.
The only example was Bohemia. But even that is not true. Bohemia was semi-independent depending who was the emperor and most of the times the Emperor did not ask anthing from Bohemia. All other vassals of all the Emperors in the world where Duke level vassals.

So it's ok for one, not even totally true vassal king make empires a tier iv title? No. Not at all. It's a bad decision in terms of historicity and gameplay.

(they could at least make vassal kings like a suzerain to the empire or an ally, or like tribal rulers call their vassals)
You are right but this will never be changed. The Empire Tier is here it will not go away. So we need suggestions the work with the game we have.
No de jure CB for Empires
Is there a reason why Empires need de jure claim wars? They are already strong enough!
Fix:
  • Remove the CB for Empires
  • or remove all no historical Empires completely or make all Empires titular custom
Empires and Kingdoms should disappear
Higher Titles nearly never leave the game after creation.
Fix:
  • A script that had a chance destroy the top tier (duke/king/emperor) title after an independence/decadence/tyranny/overthrow-ruler revolt under certain conditions (say if holding less than 40% of the de jure territory) would be very useful and appropriate also (and would give an incentive to hold one lower title just in case).
  • Empires and Kingdoms that have shrunk under a certain threshold will be replaced by titular ("rump") versions of themselves that has no de jure benefits. Vassals should be prompted to break away from the weak liege if this occurs. The titular title of the same rank is meant to prevent arbitrary breakup caused by deranking, so that a minor king holding no duchies will not be reduced to an OPM count should the de jure title disappear.
 
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Arsonik

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You are right but this will never be changed. The Empire Tier is here it will not go away. So we need suggestions the work with the game we have.


Remove de-jure empires. Increase the decision cost to create a custom empire.
 

eternalsteelfan

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Just weaken (levy size and income) the lands of Al Andalus. Simple, effective, and address the fundamental issues = Ummayads make money hand over fist and have a relatively huge stack in the 8th century with muslim-piety morale.
 
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Helios Panoptes

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Exactly that!...Empires working as a tier iv was the worst decision CK team took..of course it was some people that demanded and destroyed the game so they could paint the map their color.

Kings are independent rulers. They can't be vassals of anyone. Empires are just a prestigious title tied to religion most of a time (like a protector of this religion). There is no historical example of emperors having kings as vassals. Not even one.

Manuel Komnenos vassalized Jerusalem for a decade in the 1170s.

I think the problem, fundamentally, is CK2 is godawful at simulating decline. The game simply can't handle temporary vassalizations like Manuel's, or slowly drifting to independence like Venice did.
 
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Griff Lancer

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Manuel Komnenos vassalized Jerusalem for a decade in the 1170s.

I think the problem, fundamentally, is CK2 is godawful at simulating decline. The game simply can't handle temporary vassalizations like Manuel's, or slowly drifting to independence like Venice did.

Hopefully the upcoming prosperity system might do something with it.
 

jvm504

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I think the problem, fundamentally, is CK2 is godawful at simulating decline. The game simply can't handle temporary vassalizations like Manuel's, or slowly drifting to independence like Venice did.

Yeah pretty much. What the game needs more than anything is a mechanic to destroy titles. Empires should not be permanent. It should be possible for an empire or kingdom to completely dissolve after a major rebellion.
 
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EvilTom

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I've had trouble with this and the muslim Hispanic Empire.

Rome was taken by norse pagans in 900 and the pope militarised and declared crusade on Aquitain which was taken by the muslims empire in Iberia.
I, as the petty chief of manaw (who also had kent, Lancaster and half of Ireland) joined the Crusade. I went along with a few thousand troops and took the target. A lot of knightly orders spawned... in England. They could not get to the target area!
So the Ummayads (now called something else) turn up with a 21k doom stack and we just couldn't hold out. A few years later, crusade over and everyone is embarrassed as 4 holy orders starve to death over the subsequent winters.

If the pope calls for another crusade (which I'm looking forward to joining again) will they spawn again in England?

EDIT: just thinking about it... I should've hired those holy orders and too them over myself, but I never really play with them often!

So just as an update...
Because I didn't understand holy orders I went back to the moment 900 when I had a save. Crusader event flew, but no crusade was called. Had to wait another 6 years to r crusade on aquitaine. By which point the Ummayads had taken even more land.
Having hired a holy order and knowing what to do now I went to the to the target. The Ummayads doomstacks was only 16k this time an wit the support of Lombardy and France the kingdom of aquitaine was formed under the rule of the petty king of manaw.
Now gavalkind will screw me so I need to disinherited 4/5 sons by giving them bishoprics to keep it stable.
 

Jorlem

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  • Sayyid: +5 coreligionist opinion is functionally meaningless, and since it's passed patrilineally and Muslims can't matrimarry, it's next to impossible to acquire if you don't start with it (though both the major Sunni blobs have it).
  • Mirza: +5 coreligionist opinion is functionally inconsequential and only applies to one generation.
  • Hajjaj: Same as Christian Pilgrim, though more common since it's on the Intrigue tab instead of requiring Theology focus.
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  • Ashari/Mutazilite: Tends to cancel itself out overall, since you get +25 same trait, -25 opposite trait, and the event to convince a vassal to switch is pretty rare (75 years into my Kurdistan game across four rulers and I've only gotten it once).
  • Faqih: Only available at random.
Don't forget, they also get bonus opinion from both prestige and piety, unlike everyone else that only can benefit from one of these.
 

harrumph

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I agree that empire stability is a huge problem (even moreso for players than for the AI; every time you form an empire it's pretty much GG, and all the fun and challenge just evaporates from your game), but I really don't think the big Muslim realms are uniquely powerful or stable. In my first Conclave game, I started as one of the Welsh petty kings at the Old Gods start. By the time I was done wrapping up the British Isles, in the late 11th century—this was literally before I'd interacted in any way with a Muslim realm—the Muslims were being whipped by the Christian AI everywhere from Gibraltar to the Caspian Sea. Francia and Italy control most of North Africa (Francia has half of Iberia; Italy holds almost all of de jure Egypt), the Byzantines are halfway to Esfahan, and the strongest Muslim realm remaining is Abyssinia, of all places (Sunni Ethiopians). Every Muslim realm in the game is smaller, and has a weaker military, than Great Moravia. (It is, I must admit, an unusually badass Great Moravia.)

Yeah, that's just one game, but it's also just the most extreme example of a general trend I've seen in my recent games. I've only had one game since Conclave in which the Muslims have fared unusually well (that one, of course, is when I tried to play the Bavandids—go figure).
 
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Thorkel the Tall

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There is no historical example of emperors having kings as vassals. Not even one.

Apart from the one you yourself post, and the one Helios mentions, I would like to add that several Danish Kings have in fact sworn fealty to the emperor (for example Svend III swore allegiance to Frederik Barberossa). So at least three cases.

But weakening empires is a good idea, I think however they will get many complaints if they do so.
 

harrumph

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I'd like to see a whole DLC devoted to overhauling empires, personally. Forming an empire should be a long, interesting, difficult quest, not just the click of a button. There should be more risk, more real player involvement, and ultimately more reward, in the sense of a richer, more detailed experience, with each empire being distinct from every other (using the exact same rules to recreate both the HRE and the ERE is, as many people have observed over the years, not the most flavorful/realistic/enjoyable thing in the game).

Spending all that gold and piety to get the empire title should just be the first step—there should then be an expensive, challenging, years- or decades-long process of setting up the empire's legal and administrative structure, with plenty of events, decisions, and opportunities for failure (genius emperor dies, incompetent son takes over, factions form, everything goes to shit). The process should be smoother under certain circumstances (e.g., Zoroastrian Persian ruler tries to restore Persian Empire) and rockier under others (trying to create an empire that's never existed on territory mostly inhabited by a foreign culture/infidel religion). And if things go wrong before the empire is fully, stably established (or if an empire loses too much territory, or if a faction precipitates a crisis), the title should be destroyed.
 
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