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Memnon

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It truly frustrates me that thie game's availability was scuttled by the distributors. Victoria had the chance to become a revolutionary game within its genre. The mistake of the distributors should not be allowed to become the people's loss. Victoria is a great game because it combines intelligence, finesse, and patience (three virtues rare in modern society) with the propers historical context.

Victoria certainly requires a great amount of intelligence to play. This may sound like I'm pating myself on the back and calling myself smart, but that's not what I mean. The game requires you to have a sense of the long run. You have to plan, you have to reason, and events force you to have a knowledge of the history of the world around you. I can imagine someone who'd never taken a history class being unable to play this game:

"Ug want to unify Germany. Ug declare war Bavaria! Bavaria will not know what hit it!"

And then Ug sits own on the floor and cries when the Austrian army marches into Berlin, saying that it's not fair. He'll never play the game again.

Then there's the aspect of finesse required to play the game. Any successful game requires you to restrain your urge to co on a conquest spree, because that's what typical computer games have trained you to do. You're given an army (which suffers no attrition and can heal in the field, by the way), and you're expected to use it to crush your neighbors. Industry in other games goes only so far as armament factories and the like--things directly useful for your army.

In Victoria, on the other hand, you have to have the kind of subtelty to realize that conquest isn't always the way to go about things. Conquest makes you a lot of enemies, and people don't know how to deal with a game whos'e opponent countries actually realize that you're out to destroy them.

"Ug want to conquer Russia! Ug declare war!"

Then, Ug proceeds to sit down on the floor and cry again when the Russian army takes Berlin. It's not fair, Ug, I know, I know...

Then theres the aspect of patience--something which is lacking in most people today. Unless you're playing as the UK or Russia, the army you start out with is capable of doing very little. The warrs you can fight for the majority of the game have to be restrained. You have to stick to the objective, get it done, and pull out, because that's all you can support. Besides, you can't even annex a country that's larger than three provinces.

"Ug want Italy! Ug want it now!!"

Can you gess where Ug is going to end up this time?--exactly. On the floor, crying, saying it isn't fair that he can't annex Italy in one go.

Best of all, though, Victoria shines in it's history. Within its timeframe, it encompasses what some people argue to have been the Golden Age of Western Civilization--when the course of world events was determined by the heads of state of a select few European nations. The true model for a successful head-of-state comes from this era and the one before it. It was the Victorias, the Bismarcks, the Metternichs, the Cavours, and the (Teddy) Roosevelts that defined what it meant to be a modern international statesman. People like FDR and Churchill were great in their own way as well, but they only built upon the existing model of international diplomacy. They were working within a system that had been created by the people who'd come before them. So few people recognize that.

Victoria, perhaps more than most Paradox games, appeals to someone who really has an interest in more than just warfare. They have to be willing to manage a full scale economy that (like real economies) doesn't always bend to the will of the governments trying to control them. They have to have a grasp of the timeframe of the game, recognizing that what can be done today couldn't always be done back then.

Most importantly, though, they have to have intelligence, tact, and patience. So few people have those qualities today that the game can't appeal to a large segment of the population, but those to whom it does appeal will always support it with tenacity.
 
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Great post, Memnon, your words in people's ear!
One could add the component of social managment, the growing social discrepancies, the evolution of the modern welfare systems, the rising extremism etc.
I've heard about teachers using Paradox games in school for teaching history. Good on one hand as so the children learn about history, but bad that they can only learn it by playing a computer game.
Ah, cruel world!
 

Therlun

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Memnon said:
Best of all, though, Victoria shines in it's history. Within its timeframe, it encompasses what some people argue to have been the Golden Age of Western Civilization--when the course of world events was determined by the heads of state of a select few European nations.

lol, i had the impression it is considered a 2nd dark age. after the short (and debatable) blooming of renaissance the humanity fell back to its worst charcteristics.

it's neverless fun though. :D
 

Memnon

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Therlun said:
lol, i had the impression it is considered a 2nd dark age. after the short (and debatable) blooming of renaissance the humanity fell back to its worst charcteristics.
That, too, is a legitimate interpretation. I suppose it all depends on what you consider to be the main characteristics of Western Civilization. What's the norm and what's the anomaly? ;)
 

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:(

I tried my best... Victoria is not available in Brazil (in fact, only EU2 was in stores here) but I bought four copies to give as gifts for friends of mine. IMO, it is the best Paradox game, and that means a lot.

I didn't know you Europeans and Americans had a hard time trying to find in stores. That's bad news...

Let's hope the e-butik is doing well!
 

Razgovory

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Kriegspieler said:
BTW, I have trouble believing that Johan ever admitted to Vicky's sales having been "terrible." I vaguely remember them being "disappointing." After HOI, anything would look disappointing, wouldn't it?

Actually he said that "nobody bought it". I know I bought it so that statement can't be true. Thus I interpet as "it sold terribly".
 

unmerged(9383)

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i live in stuttgart the capital of württemberg as wellinformed vicky players know and even here i only saw it in one store! i finally purchased it at ebay.
so it sure is selling bad. however what did u expect of our time where students cant find their home town on a map???
i myself as a history fan wouldve never even dreamed of a game where i can be bismarck see the balcan wars take place, italy unifies, boor war, crimean war. i am just thankfull.
we have to spread the word of this game maybe we can all help at least a bit to raise sales!
 

Dark Knight

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Judging from the many posts on this forum, it seems that distribution of Victoria was quite lacking. Even people who were actively searching for it had trouble finding it, which means there would have been relatively few purchases made by people who didn't already know about the game.
 

Dinsdale

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Dark Knight said:
Judging from the many posts on this forum, it seems that distribution of Victoria was quite lacking. Even people who were actively searching for it had trouble finding it, which means there would have been relatively few purchases made by people who didn't already know about the game.

Yes, the game sold poorly (if that's true) because it was f'ing impossible to find :mad: :mad:

Sorry, flashbacks to the 150+ miles I racked up and bushel load of moronic game store acne-holders who looked at me with that expression the biker gives to naked Arnie in Terminator 2 :(
 

unmerged(28310)

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Some people in this post mentioned the learning curve. But the game is really not that hard once you learn how to play it. I know this has been said to death but-they write a game with millions of lines of code and then fail to explain seemingly anything in a very tiny manual. Alot of this game seems to be fluff(In other words-stuff in the game that has no real effect)
1)Consciousness-if your not a monarchy it seems there is no point even glancing at this stat-if you are a monarchy just go free parties-all alowed to vote-Am I missing something here? I played till 1890 with almost all my pops at 10 con and no ill effects. Is all H--- going to break loose the last 10yrs or something.
2)All the different pop standings-doesn't really add anything-just seems to make the whole ai world eventually become a bunch of commies.
3)Meeting peoples needs almost seems a waste of money.
Don't get me wrong the game is worth it but something is missing. Something is out of balance. EU2 is the greatest ever and this game has potential but isn't there yet.
I just picked up Vict around a month ago and it was hard to locate so the people who stated that is what is hurting sales raise a very fine point. If the game isn't on shelves it isn't going to sell. Basically I waited for two reasons.
1)I almost never buy games near release-the whole computer gaming industry is releasing unfinished products and is my choice.
2)I couldn't picture the ai putting up a good fight in a more complex game than EU2-the ai in EU2 is its biggest weakness(as in all computer games)
 

Memnon

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Ioannes said:
1)Consciousness-if your not a monarchy it seems there is no point even glancing at this stat-if you are a monarchy just go free parties-all alowed to vote-Am I missing something here? I played till 1890 with almost all my pops at 10 con and no ill effects. Is all H--- going to break loose the last 10yrs or something.
Yes, I think you are missing something. The very point of Consciousness is to make your POPs understand their own political standing. Most of them start out conservative and as their needs change and their consciousness and militancy rises, they'll switch ideologies, and therefore switch parties. The higher their consciousness, the more they realize that the Imperial Faction isn't the party for them, and the more the realize that, the more they get angry.

I don't know why you had so few revolts with high consciousness POPs. Maybe you were giving a bunch of reforms (high consciousness makes social reforms more effective), or maybe you just had low taxes or your POPs were getting all their goods. Or maybe your population actually was conservative and they didn't mind the government at all. That's happened to me more than once. It especially seems to happen as Russia.
2)All the different pop standings-doesn't really add anything-just seems to make the whole ai world eventually become a bunch of commies.
If by "pop standing" you mean the different classes of POPs--ie Craftsmen, Clerks, Aristocrats, etc--then I have to disagree. I recognize that the addition of POP types is an unusual aspect, both in that it adds a significant amount of micromanagement and in that it is unrealistic for the ruler to control such an aspect of his population, but nevertheless, I think that aspect of the game is one of the more intresting.
3)Meeting peoples needs almost seems a waste of money.
It's hardly a waste of money. They'll revolt of their needs are constantly remaining totally unfulfilled.
Don't get me wrong the game is worth it but something is missing. Something is out of balance. EU2 is the greatest ever and this game has potential but isn't there yet.
Yes, some aspects of the game remain unbalanced. The AI's understanding of peace treaties, in my opinion, still needs serious tweaking (we've all experienced the stubborn AI syndrome before), and yet I must say that the game has indeed become much more balanced since the new patches came out.

It muct be incredibly difficult to balance a game of this complexity, but I wouldn't know as I've never tried to do it.
1)I almost never buy games near release-the whole computer gaming industry is releasing unfinished products and is my choice.
People have often accused the computer game industry--and especially Paradox--of releasing unfinished games. But I think Paradox, even if it is at fault for this, more than makes up for it through their ever-present support of their games. I mean, what patch is EU up to now anyway?
2)I couldn't picture the ai putting up a good fight in a more complex game than EU2-the ai in EU2 is its biggest weakness(as in all computer games)
I suggest you raise the difficulty level.
 

unmerged(28310)

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No,I meant ideology and standing on issues. During an election you can influence your pops standings on issues and therefore it seems have control of what party gets elected. But I am only talking of one game so maybe was a fluke.
Can a 0 militancy pop with a 0 revolt risk in the prov revolt? If so is there a way to monitor the risk factor?
 

Memnon

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Ioannes said:
No,I meant ideology and standing on issues. During an election you can influence your pops standings on issues and therefore it seems have control of what party gets elected. But I am only talking of one game so maybe was a fluke.
POP standings are important. Every political party in the game comes with defined standings on certain issues (ie. they're Laissez-Faire or Interventionist or Full Citizenship or Secularist or whatever), and each POP also comes with ideologies. Those POP ideologies are based on their situation (ie. laborers and craftsmen not getting their goods go socialist; aristocrats who've had power taken away from them by a democratic government go reactionary). Those POP then vote for their goverment (or, if they can't vote, choose whether to like the government or not) based on those very ideologies.

So let's recap:
1) Every POP has a standing on an issue
2) Every political party in the game has standings on the same issues
3) POPs choose whether to vote for and accept the government in power or not based on how their particular views on the issues compare and contrast with those of the party in power. Make sense?

So not bothering to care if you laborers are getting their goods can make them turn socialist, and if they turn socialist, they're going to revolt against any government except for a socialist one.

And in case you were wondering, some parties also come with minimums and maximums in spending for defense, social reforms, tariffs, and taxes, so watching who gets elected can be very important indeed.
 

unmerged(27727)

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Memnon said:
Most importantly, though, they have to have intelligence, tact, and patience. So few people have those qualities today that the game can't appeal to a large segment of the population, but those to whom it does appeal will always support it with tenacity.

I don't quote your whole post, but I have to say : you speak so well Memnon, you have to become a politician ! You're american, right ? There are going to be presidential elections ?... ;)
By the way, so,we, Vicky players, are some sort of an elite ? I didn't realize we're so damn bright people ! Cool ! :rolleyes: ;)

About the game availabitlity : I had no problem at all to find it in France : big shops, french internet sites, etc. 45 euros like the previous paradox games I bought when they were released (EU and HoI).
 

Memnon

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Moinex said:
I don't quote your whole post, but I have to say : you speak so well Memnon, you have to become a politician ! You're american, right ? There are going to be presidential elections ?... ;)
You're not the only one thinking that, Moinex ;)

But you'll have to wait until 2020 at the least. It's the first election year in which I'm eligible to run.

And an on-topic comment on the game availability: I went to two Best Buys and a Circuit City before I gave up and ordered it online. Fortunately, I never found the need to drive 150 miles to find a copy, but I think it was a true crime that the distributors failed to pull up their end of the bargain.
 

unmerged(27727)

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Memnon said:
You're not the only one thinking that, Moinex ;)

But you'll have to wait until 2020 at the least. It's the first election year in which I'm eligible to run.

And an on-topic comment on the game availability: I went to two Best Buys and a Circuit City before I gave up and ordered it online. Fortunately, I never found the need to drive 150 miles to find a copy, but I think it was a true crime that the distributors failed to pull up their end of the bargain.

You have to be a certain age to be eligible, right ? Ok, we'll wait to see you president of the USA elsewhere than in Victoria or HoI. :p

This availability issue is a mystery to me : Paradox is now a well known company, in the video games world, and their previous titles were successfull. So ? :confused:
 

Memnon

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Moinex said:
You have to be a certain age to be eligible, right ?
In the US, the requirements are as follows:

House of Representatives - 25 years of age, and a resident of the district in which you're trying to be elected
Senate - 30 years of age, and a resident of the state in which you're trying to be elected
President - 35 years of age, born in the United States of America*, and you cannot be from the same state as the candidate for Vice President (it's an old requirement from earlier days that's still in effect).

*The exception to the US birth requirement is from the earliest days of the Constitution, which said that to be eligible for the Presidency, you must have been born in the United States or have been living in the US at the time of the writing of the Constitution. This allowed, for example, an immigrant who had come to the States while they were still colonies to become president. I suppose it was done because many non-American born colonials had fought in the Revolution, and the framers wanted to be just about it.

This availability issue is a mystery to me : Paradox is now a well known company, in the video games world, and their previous titles were successfull. So ? :confused:
I truly think it was a combination of plain, old-fashined laziness on the part of the distributors (the places I went to hadn't even heard of the game) with a little bit of peer pressure added in. The reviews of Victoria certainly weren't the most flattering commentaries I've ever read, and I think this may have played a part in the decision many stores made not to carry the game: they saw bad reviews, and they assumed the game wouldn't sell well. It appears to have been a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
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maartos

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Memnon said:
I truly think it was a combination of plain, old-fashined laziness on the part of the distributors (the places I went to hadn't even heard of the game) with a little bit of peer pressure added in. The reviews of Victoria certainly weren't the most flattering commentaries I've ever read, and I think this may have played a part in the decision many stores made not to carry the game: they saw bad reviews, and they assumed the game wouldn't sell well. It appears to have been a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Do shops/distributors really take into account the reviews?