Is Vic2 the best PDX right now (April 2021)? Does it really need a sequel?

[Aeroclub]

So I've been a bid PDX fan for the past 15 years or so, probably have over 10k hours across all of the studios franchises and 100% achievements in a couple of them.

Having not played Vic2 since 2015, I picked it up and have binge played it in the past couple of weeks...Surely it was one of the favorite Paradox games for all the studio fans out there back in the day, but now I've started to seriously wonder if Vic2 is still the best PDX game right now, in 2021.

Don't get me wrong - I love all the other franchises too. But EU4 just keeps throwing debacle after debacle of updates at us instead of solving the tech debt and I gave up on this game a couple years ago. HoI4 is moving from a serious grand strategy to a meme arcade. Stellaris is amazing but has too many systems that don't interact well with one another and need a sequel to rework everything from ground up. CK3 is still rather devoid of content.

So granted, I played Victoria 2 with a Historical Project Mod that adds quite a bit of stuff to the game...but I really, honestly enjoyed it right now much more than any of the current franchises. The way all the systems interact with one another and influence one another - the sense of interconnection of economy, politics, social change, diplomacy and warfare - is still absolutely unmatched by any other Paradox title.

Sure, it needs a facelift and some QoL improvements (macrobuilder, influence automation etc)...but it doesn't really need a rework of any of the core mechanics. And with everyone so hyped up about a potential sequel, I'm actually quite worried that it may break something that doesn't need fixing. VIctoria 2 needs a facelift QoL / Remastered version, kind of like TW: Rome recently had, not a new installment, don't you guys think?

 

[Amtep]

I wouldn't mind seeing a vic-style game in other timeframes though. Maybe 1200-1500 "Rise of the Guilds", which was also an economic and political revolution in its time.

 

[MilosM]

I don't even think it needs a facelift. I find the flat map to be perfect. I would just like more time to play around, which is why I would change how to the time ticks. 4 ticks a day like in March of the Eagles would be nice.

Also, army management and organization could be improved.

 

[Bunnytob]

I feel like Vicky 2 is a great premise and set for a game, but I genuinely feel like it does need a sequel because there are things in Victoria 2 so fundamental to its design that to change them would be to change the game - and yet they need changing. It's like keeping an old piece of equipment instead of buying something new - more updates to Vicky 2 would certainly help, but there comes a point where it's just easier to design a new game that changes or fixes the problems instead.

 

[Aeroclub]

I feel like Vicky 2 is a great premise and set for a game, but I genuinely feel like it does need a sequel because there are things in Victoria 2 so fundamental to its design that to change them would be to change the game - and yet they need changing. It's like keeping an old piece of equipment instead of buying something new - more updates to Vicky 2 would certainly help, but there comes a point where it's just easier to design a new game that changes or fixes the problems instead.

Can you give us an example of such a thing?

 

[rwds]

I think incorporating some HOI4 features into a potential vicky sequel would do the game many favors. The biggest of which would be creating a new small arms & artillery item type for every advancement in small arms/artillery tech to properly model how big of a deal it is to have access to a large quantity of the newest & hottest guns.

This is how it currently works in vic 2: The same day you research a new small arms or big guns tech your whole army is instantly equipped with the latest guns.

How a vic 3 with added HOI4 stockpile mechanics would work: The day you research a new small arms or big guns tech your factories would have to start producing the new guns and for some time your army will have to make do with the old guns for a significant amount of time until the new equipment has made its way from the factories to the army.

This could also lead to some new and interesting gameplay mechanics where you could sell or donate your old guns to rebels or primitive nations.
Historically, when countries were sent a pile of guns (even if they were not the latest models) this made a huge impact on the performance of what would otherwise have been underequipped soldiers/guerilla and I feel like this should & could be moddelled more accurately in games set in Victoria's time period.

 

[Aeroclub]

I think incorporating some HOI4 features into a potential vicky sequel would do the game many favors. The biggest of which would be creating a new small arms & artillery item type for every advancement in small arms/artillery tech to properly model how big of a deal it is to have access to a large quantity of the newest & hottest guns.

This is how it currently works in vic 2: The same day you research a new small arms or big guns tech your whole army is instantly equipped with the latest guns.

How a vic 3 with added HOI4 stockpile mechanics would work: The day you research a new small arms or big guns tech your factories would have to start producing the new guns and for some time your army will have to make do with the old guns for a significant amount of time until the new equipment has made its way from the factories to the army.

This could also lead to some new and interesting gameplay mechanics where you could sell or donate your old guns to rebels or primitive nations.
Historically, when countries were sent a pile of guns (even if they were not the latest models) this made a huge impact on the performance of what would otherwise have been underequipped soldiers/guerilla and I feel like this should & could be moddelled more accurately in games set in Victoria's time period.

I think the biggest contradiction between HoI4 and Vi2 economies is the former's concept of "assigning" factories to production of particular thing, which is very contradictory to the later's whole premise of encouraging capitalists to do these things as they see fit.

 

[Bunnytob]

Can you give us an example of such a thing?

Off the top of my head - and bear in mind that some of these examples will be far better than others (and most aren't really "fundamental"):
- A 2-way peace deal is not possible
- Victoria 2 is heavily state-based when it comes to factors like Industry and Territory, which is something I do not really like. For example:
> If Afghanistan retakes its core province from Bukkhara, Bukkhara then has to take the entire state if it wants its province back - though there is a common event in many mods that repatriates non-cores.
> It is entirely impossible to get a border along the Rhine as France, simply because some states cross over the river.
> Coal mined just across the border in Moravia cannot be used to fuel industry in Bratislava - that has to come from the Carpathians.
- As mentioned above, all equipment is always up-to-date no matter what.
- Entire provinces produce only one RGO, which means that many countries (like those in South America) are almost entirely unable to produce their own food.
- There are only three possible levels of culture acceptance in the game (Primary/Accepted/Unaccepted) which does not adequately account for POP attitudes (Why would North Italians be just as angry under 2Sicilian rule as they would be under Hungarian rule?)
- Fort Spam (unless you're a poor nation)
- Railroad Spam (Trans-Siberian Railroad? Sorry, it's only a ~20% speed boost, and the Capitalists have already smothered all of Siberia in railroads anyway. Do any of your generals have any cartography experience? You'd be better off putting one of them in charge and marching across the entire thing.)
- The entire combat system (No encirclement/flanking bonuses at all, only 2 lines of combat, rebels never get any tech boosts)
- Rigid POP systems (Sorry, Canada, you need at least 1000 soldiers in a province to raise any sort of army, which means exactly zero people in the Maritimes can join your standing army)

While many of these can be changed with some ease, it'd probably just be easier to make a new game at that point.

 

[Kazanov]

Can you give us an example of such a thing?

- the End game military seriously needs a rework, you end playing with huge plane stacks fighting wars like its 1836.
- The tech system is just inapropiate if you are playing outside Europe, we adopted European techs and ideas...never developed paralel ideas and techs like the game suggests.
- Same with industry, is far easier to buy ships and planes from the developed nations than to build them yourself. Yet in Vicky 2 many nations have unrealistic fleets and armies.

 

[Aeroclub]

All of the points you guys raise are valid, and I think we don't have a deep enough knowledge of the game mechanics to tell how easily they are to fix...but I would still like to come back to my original point: compare these relatively minor things to such examples as pop growth mechanic issues of Stellaris, or AI frontline stabilty in HoI4 and other things of the similar magnitude. Unlike Vic2 issues that you mentioned, these are the things that make the fundamental and core system of other games dysfunctional! Making Vic2 probably the best PDX game even right now, in 2021.

 

[Nyrael]

Yes it does. I remember the last time I tried y Grand Campaign: the moment I entered Victoria 2 was the moment when I felt robbed of 90% of things I could do, while getting very little new things to do. Months later opening Vic2 to play a normal campaign had the similar results.

A lot of things are rough and unfinished: technology system is awkward, ROTW is a joke, vassal management is horrible, monarchs and presidents are not represented in any way whatsoever, politics between parties are missing, great historical persons are just minor events, spread of ideologies feels artificial, war system is half-baked, and so on.

What we don't need is a shift in the game's vision, and it shouldn't get dumbed down to attract new players.

 

[Deliberus]

Well, the UI is dated, the warfare part of the game is almost garbage (planes are represented as land units, lol) the factories and provinces could use some diversification, the political map remains stagnant for 100 years (ottomans almost never collapse, no real breakup of multi ethnic empires or struggles of religion and state) and the game just breaks in the economy department at the half way point.

It's not great but, it's certainly unique and should it be revisited for Vic 3 with all of its potential.

 

[qer]

Yeah it is the best paradox game. Can anyone point me one that is better? Of course it isn't perfect, but maybe the lack of the DLC milking cow scheme has been a blessing.

 

[Amtep]

I think what's most in need of fixing is the world market and the sphere markets (and how they interact). It's pretty buggy and unpredictable now, and you can't even do common sense things like stockpile food that your population can use if your imports get interrupted.

I would like to see some kind of trade power system to divide up the supply and demand, instead of the strict rank order system we have now. This would also allow wartime embargoes to be represented.

 

[Jayavarman]

CK2 and Vic2 are my most played Pdox games right now while waiting for EU4 to be fixed and CK3 to be expanded.

 

[The Goldfinch]

So I've been a bid PDX fan for the past 15 years or so, probably have over 10k hours across all of the studios franchises and 100% achievements in a couple of them.

Having not played Vic2 since 2015, I picked it up and have binge played it in the past couple of weeks...Surely it was one of the favorite Paradox games for all the studio fans out there back in the day, but now I've started to seriously wonder if Vic2 is still the best PDX game right now, in 2021.

Don't get me wrong - I love all the other franchises too. But EU4 just keeps throwing debacle after debacle of updates at us instead of solving the tech debt and I gave up on this game a couple years ago. HoI4 is moving from a serious grand strategy to a meme arcade. Stellaris is amazing but has too many systems that don't interact well with one another and need a sequel to rework everything from ground up. CK3 is still rather devoid of content.

So granted, I played Victoria 2 with a Historical Project Mod that adds quite a bit of stuff to the game...but I really, honestly enjoyed it right now much more than any of the current franchises. The way all the systems interact with one another and influence one another - the sense of interconnection of economy, politics, social change, diplomacy and warfare - is still absolutely unmatched by any other Paradox title.

Sure, it needs a facelift and some QoL improvements (macrobuilder, influence automation etc)...but it doesn't really need a rework of any of the core mechanics. And with everyone so hyped up about a potential sequel, I'm actually quite worried that it may break something that doesn't need fixing. VIctoria 2 needs a facelift QoL / Remastered version, kind of like TW: Rome recently had, not a new installment, don't you guys think?

Victoria II needs complete rework of diplomacy, infamy, sphere mechanic, internal politics and warfare.

First of all, it does not picture most important feature of time period: great powers being concerned by literally everything that is happening all over the world, and reacting to it. Conferences, ultimatums, claims, balance of power. Infamy mechanic matches maybe some sort of civ or total war. Completely new dyplomatic system is needed.

Sphere mechanics are simply ridiculous too, without picturing the most meaningful thing about it: sphering uncivilized nation should be only a first step to further limiting its independence. And other great powers should try to contest it.

Also, internal politics: change of government forms was not achieved by swarms of anarcho liberal rebels flooding your country every few years.

Also warfare. Lack of decent supply system is simply unacceptable: this was not Hannibal era when armies could wander deep into enemy territory, being completely cut off from own lands. Thats what happened in most of my games, swarms of brits coming from Sudan and trying to occupy desert. Later in game, leaving one unprotected province on the border led to enemy armies pouring inside your lands, not giving a damn about possibility of being cut off.

 

[ShogunToyo]

Victoria 2 is the best game from PDX Studio and after what I saw with I: Rome and new DLC for EU4 Leviathan I hope they will never realese Vic3. This is not the same Studio like 12 years ago. Now their games are for 10 years kids not for real men.

 

[Amtep]

Sphere mechanics are simply ridiculous too, without picturing the most meaningful thing about it: sphering uncivilized nation should be only a first step to further limiting its independence. And other great powers should try to contest it.

Yes that bothers me too. There are some events for annexing sphered nations but you basically have to memorize them, and there's no general mechanic. In practice you often have to choose: annex OR sphere, because after you sphere them you can't declare war anymore. And that doesn't really make sense.

 

[Bunnytob]

Which often results in nations like Algeria, Punjab, Sindh, and Khiva remaining completely unconquered throughout the entire game, even though they realistically should be.

 

[batata1]

As someone who's played most of Paradox's game, I think Vic2 is #3 after HoI4 and EU4. It has the potential to be #1 but that has not been fulfilled. Some of the flaws are pretty huge. The lack of a division designer so you're constantly manually fixing armies is the most obvious. A few of the others already mentioned, like supply and encirclement.

The other thing it's missing is mods. Steam doesn't even support Vic2 mods. In EU4 and HoI4 I haven't played the base game in many years. I only play mods. They're so much better than the base game, and Vic2's modding community is naturally small.

When I played Vic2 I was frustrated it didn't get updates because the division designer in particular seems like an easy fix. But it seems something is fairly seriously wrong at Paradox given DLCs have been questionable for years and now Leviathan is the worst rated item on steam. So it's probably not going to get any attention any time soon, which is a shame.