Is Venice without Venice still Venice ?

[Tisifoni12]

In my current game, playing as another Mediterranean power I note that Venice comprises southern Greece and Crete, but has lost Venice and its Italian territories.

I suspect that has implications for the economy of 'Venice', the ethnic composition of 'Venice', the future potential of 'Venice'.
Is Athens the new Venice, or does Venice become Athens ?

 

[FishieFan]

Byz was still byz even when it didnt own Byzantium during the frankocratia

 

[strqfzd911]

In my current game, playing as another Mediterranean power I note that Venice comprises southern Greece and Crete, but has lost Venice and its Italian territories.

I suspect that has implications for the economy of 'Venice', the ethnic composition of 'Venice', the future potential of 'Venice'.
Is Athens the new Venice, or does Venice become Athens ?

yes

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Venice isn't a place it's an idea.

 

[Blindbohemian]

In my current game, playing as another Mediterranean power I note that Venice comprises southern Greece and Crete, but has lost Venice and its Italian territories.

I suspect that has implications for the economy of 'Venice', the ethnic composition of 'Venice', the future potential of 'Venice'.
Is Athens the new Venice, or does Venice become Athens ?

It’s the Venetian government-in-exile

More seriously, for some decades it makes sense that an exiled power continues insisting that it is the legitimate government of wherever. Some kind of mechanic that would later change the tag would be cool. The problem is, to what? The primary tag of whatever culture is now dominant? Any nonexistent tag that has a core on their new capital?

 

[Tisifoni12]

It’s the Venetian government-in-exile

More seriously, for some decades it makes sense that an exiled power continues insisting that it is the legitimate government of wherever. Some kind of mechanic that would later change the tag would be cool. The problem is, to what? The primary tag of whatever culture is now dominant? Any nonexistent tag that has a core on their new capital?

Quite

New Venice, the Athenian Republic, form Greece ?

 

[Blindbohemian]

Quite

New Venice, the Athenian Republic, form Greece ?

I think the particular challenge here is that unless we want this to be unique to Venice (which would be silly, it’s more common and equally annoying that this happens to Genoa) there needs to be some generalisable rule by which the name change is applied. And I am not sure I can think of any strong rule.

Part of the problem is that this situation just doesn’t make a great deal of sense in the history EUIV is meant to ape: I can’t think of any cases of a city-state being reduced to its overseas empire, because when a city-state was so reduced in history as far as I am aware, the empire collapsed or was annexed. So we don’t really have examples to draw on.

 

[Kurfürstin Adelheid]

Reminds me of when X free city conquers land but then loses their original province, so you have Bremen exiled to Denmark and all that.

I guess it depends - in theory the leadership of a trade-focused city could try and set up a similar system in another place, but then you have to consider that a lot of what makes Venice Venice has gone by this point - they don't have Venice, the people aren't Venetian, they aren't catholic etc. So realistically I think in this scenario they should change their name and flag to Crete or something else appropriate, but maybe keep their government reform.

 

[Vityviktor]

Having the rest of the Venetian (or Genovese for instance) colonies split into several new republics would be pretty interesting.

 

[holyvigil]

Byz was still byz even when it didnt own Byzantium during the frankocratia

Except Byz was never Byz except when Byz no longer existed historically and an English historian thought it would be cool to rename them.

A better one would be the HRE or RE.

 

[Josar]

You use the example of Athens, but Athens is country ruled by Latin rulers (Italian) despite the province being Greek. The same is true of most of the remainders of the crusader states like Cyprus, Epirus, The Knights, Naxos. So yes Venice could still be called Venice without the province.

 

[brantodb01]

Rome is still Rome even without Rome

 

[Tisifoni12]

You use the example of Athens, but Athens is country ruled by Latin rulers (Italian) despite the province being Greek. The same is true of most of the remainders of the crusader states like Cyprus, Epirus, The Knights, Naxos. So yes Venice could still be called Venice without the province.

Piraeus is the new Venice, or maybe Candia (Heraklion), or maybe Naxos

 

[DominusNovus]

Crusader Kings 2 and 3 seem to handle this reasonably well. You can continue to claim to be the Lord of whatever even if you don't hold that territory, but whomever does is going to be able to take that title from you with trivial ease.

 

[grommile]

Crusader Kings 2 and 3 seem to handle this reasonably well. You can continue to claim to be the Lord of whatever even if you don't hold that territory, but whomever does is going to be able to take that title from you with trivial ease.

That's because CK2 and 3 think in terms of titles, not tags and provinces.

 

[Blust]

Venice isn't a place it's an idea.

The idea :

 

[heliostellar]

The Holy Roman Empire never held Rome.

 

[DominusNovus]

The idea :

View attachment 959146

So, not only is the US the modern Rome, its also the modern Venice.

 

[Oporto]

Yes, it is. It's still The Most Serene Republic of Venice.

Unless, of course, venetians are not leading the government anymore - maybe because they died out or got kicked out during some coup by, say, greeks.

Maybe it would be good to have some mechanics like this: if you play a country that has many provinces of it's not primary culture, if you lose your capital and most of your primary culture's provinces, and also have negative stability. the people of other culture may rise up and try to take over your government by force, thus becoming a new primary culture and being able to form other countries depending on the new culture. Many states with cultural minority in charge (like Ragusa or Crusader states in Greece) have managed to survive because of strong grip of the government on its territory and conformism of the most op populace, so stability is essential to this. This actually can be a new type of disaster - Minorities Coup or something like that.

 

[Oporto]