Is this optimal to ''burn MP'' to bring your capital ASAP to 30 DEV, then 50 DEV for institutions ?

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BaronNoir

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My current approach is that when there is an institution that is not started ''home'', I use all MPs possible on the capital to bring it up to 30ish to get the idea to spread, then 50-51-52 to ''get'' the second NI required)

I mean there that I essentially burn every point and stop ressearching tech until I have the institution in my country. Then I take ideas until it have spread enough
 
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zedyue

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only useful for some regions for some institutions

-Generally you conquer your way into feudalism because it's always close but spreads slow, no reason to ever develop for this unless there's some non-feudalism island start I haven't heard of.
-Rennaisance is the typical one people burn mp into if they're anywhere east of the mamelukes but it depends on if it's gonna spread by islands quickly (always do it if you're india or east or low africa tho)
-Colonialism can even be worth it in europe because it can get bottlenecked by the british/france hatred but eventually portugal will get it with natural spread by having colonies so it depends
-Printing press spreads kinda fast but it spreads based on religion so sometimes this has to be done too, depends on how the colonizers are getting around africa
-Global Trade and Manufactories NEVER need to be developed for unless you're impatient or are bumping by one dev to get a faster growth or something, these things spread near instantly everywhere though
-I usually quit playing by enlightenment because I have no patience

You really CAN eat a 20-30% tech penalty for a tech or two. Think about it this way, you're wasting 150 points on a high priced tech, or you're spending 2000+ points PLUS the full price of that tech... unless you're gonna be stuck behind at 50% for 100 years it's not really worth developing unless you're gonna use that money from the ridiculous province to conquer like hell (it's more efficient to use the MP to tech up and conquer toward the institution)

Hope some of that helps.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Do not develop for an institution twice in the same province. Develop later institutions in adjacent provinces, to take advantage of the fast spread between provinces of large development.

Typical ROTW fare is to start with or conquer into feudalism, develop renaissance + printing press, and sometimes develop colonialism.

You will therefore have 2-3 30+ development provinces all adjacent to each other, ideally one of them a trade center so you get global trade spread fast too. The last two are building dependent so you just spam buildings for those.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Noted. I just thought that as you need a 50 developpement city anyway...

It's an objective in the very last age, and while it's nice "need" is a strong word. It's probably still relatively cheaper to use the 1000 development discount + admin efficiency to get there later anyway, probably with spare MIL points mostly.
 

ponasozis

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colonialism and printing press with renesance are hardest to get
and you should probably force spawn them anywhere else outside europe or Mediterranean sea

well except natives as you can reform and get all tech and institutions for free
 

romothecus

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-Global Trade and Manufactories NEVER need to be developed for unless you're impatient or are bumping by one dev to get a faster growth or something, these things spread near instantly everywhere though

this is so true. i did a new world custom nation once, spawned manufactories in north america where i controlled the entire continent. but i was only like 3-4th country to adopt because it spread into european manufactories so fast.
 

Sfan

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With Loyal Burghers, proper edict and Prosperity, the cost of developping is actually pretty low, especially if you have favorable terrain, climate and trade goods. But you can find them pretty much everywhere around the globe. Usually an institution costs less than 2000 points to develop, so it's always worth it if you can't get the institution in less than 40 years, unless you're reall small and can't get advisors to stay on par with your neighbours. Usually, between better use of estates and better economy, you can develop without falling behind your neighbours, and that ensures that you are on par with everyone later in the game.
However, it is usually better to pick up adjacent provinces, because the development cost is not capped but the institution advancement is capped at +7 per development point. That's less and less effective from a certain point, unless maybe it's some super good province to develop like Warsaw and Milan (and then again, there are good provinces nearby).
 

Foefaller

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If you're in Europe, it's typically not worth development (or at least 0-100% development) regardless of the circumstances. Even in that edge case of England getting Colonialism and not spreading outside the British Isles because of their hatred of France, eventually Portugal, Castile or any mainland European nation that has New world provinces (on top of the Colonial Nation spread, there is a special event for those with Quest for the New World and a colony in the Americas called "Colonial Charter?" that can cause full embracement of Colonialism in a random coastal province) will get it and spread from there.

As for the RotW, it basically goes:

Feudalism: For the rare few that don't have it, typically not worth it because you either have a government type that will spread it (Mali or Songhai) or are adjacent to a nation that already has it or will get it. One exception might be the Kongo/Central Africa regions; no one there is a non-tribal government, there are no touching borders with anyone that has Feudalism or a non-tribal government, and unless Kongo becomes Catholic (which reforms their government as well), the first chance of you getting it via spread will almost certainly be when a European power starts colonizing nearby, which is typically decades later for Central Africa than it is for West Africa... and you can't get any Renaissance spread unless you have embraced Feudalism either.

Renaissance: North Africa and the Middle east are probably the ones that can wait for development; North Africa will get spread from Iberia and the Middle East from Anatolia (which it, or at least Constantinople, is considered Europe as far as the initial spread is concerned. anywhere else it's worth it, especially East Asia and Central Africa; the former often doesn't get it normally until the 1650's or later (baring the odd chance where Ming or another AI nation actually develops in on their own) and Central Africa, when Europeans come knocking. West Africa and India are borderline; you might get 50% tech penalties, but colonization of the Ivory Coast and the event that gives Goa to Portugal means you get fairly early access to those institutions via spread, thanks to the AI often delaying before putting provinces into TC's.

Colonialism: A Mali going for Abu Akbar II's Dream or an East Asia country making a colonial nation in Alaska or California can just wait for it (Australia does NOT count) same with North Africa, since 9 times out of 10 it either spawns in Iberia or starts developing shortly after once someone there gains a colonial nation, Middle East is borderline, because of their distance from Western Europe, as well as India and West Africa again thanks to Ivory Coast colonies and Portugal getting Goa. One thing to note; once Global Trade has started to show up, any nation that doesn't have Colonialism that has a province in a Trade Node that has a merchant of a nation that *does* have Colonialism will eventually get an event similar to the Colonial Charter one that can also cause full embracement, though that does mean waiting for both it *and* Printing Press to reach full penalty, baring some conversion wonkiness.

Printing Press: If Portugal hasn't gotten Goa yet, they will almost certainly will by this point, so India can usually pass on development on this unless Portugal has been completely wiped out or Goa is a proper TC land by this point. Otherwise it's development, as there are no events that spread it pass Europe like Colonialism; However, Kongo, Daimyos and Ming might be able to take advantage of events that can make them Catholic and then switch to Protestant or Reformed and get it that way.

Global Trade and onwards: just wait, especially Global Trade, which will start developing from every Center of Trade across the entire world, regardless of the state of the nation that owns it. Manufacturies and Enlightenment are entirely building based however (well, Enlightenment also spreads via parliament seats, but Absolutism being what it is...) with Enlightenment probably being the harder, since Universities are probably not something you'd be building seeing as you've already gotten passed all the hard-to-spread institutions by the time it shows up, whereas Manufacturies are something you should have quite a few of by the time their institution pops.
 

Sfan

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That depends what you call Europe. Even a nation like Poland is better off developping Warsaw for institutions, which is the cheapest province of the game to develop, than waiting for natural spread. Bohemia/Hungary will have them via you only slightly before they would have had them via Austria, and you get a massive edge over Muscovy.
Russian nations have to develop if they don't want to eat a +50% penalty, especially if they hold really good provinces for development.
I agree for Western Europe.
 

Foefaller

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That depends what you call Europe. Even a nation like Poland is better off developping Warsaw for institutions, which is the cheapest province of the game to develop, than waiting for natural spread. Bohemia/Hungary will have them via you only slightly before they would have had them via Austria, and you get a massive edge over Muscovy.
Russian nations have to develop if they don't want to eat a +50% penalty, especially if they hold really good provinces for development.
I agree for Western Europe.

Yeah, right after I posted this, I started a Russia game where England *did* get colonialism and kept it forever thanks to hostilities with France.

About 1592 before it spread to where I was. Should have started building up Moscow or St. Petersburg the moment I saw that.

Not 100% sure it's still a required thing otherwise for it and Printing Press though, at least for Russia. The Russian Culture territories are one of the wealthiest in terms of development, and Empire rank comes with forming Russia. Even with waiting for those two, I was still getting ahead-of-tech penalties thanks to the +2 advisors I was able to maintain.
 

kakatua

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[QUOTE="Foefaller, post: 23457016, member: 1089477"...[/QUOTE]

1 - I just started a game as Songhai to check it. 1494 to spawn Feudalism in the capital. 1484 using Spread Institution Edict for 40 years. 40/50 years with +50% tech penalty to a nation that starts at tech 2 doesn't worth. Develop it.

2 - Printing Press is the worse institution to spread. Ottos/Russia needs to force dev it or will take ages unless you are doing world conquest and has half of your land as heretics.

3 - I played a full MP campaign as Russia and I had to develop the first three institutions because Lithuania is poor and takes ages to anything cross this shitty land. Ok, I didn't had to spawn Colonialism because Sweden did it for me, but I would had.
 

AnssiA

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I think developing institutions is the way to go most of the time. Some institutions that spread naturally (like 0.15/month) in your region you don't need to develop 100%, but something like 50% is my preference. It is worth remember the development brings concrete economic value, especially to smaller countries. That 2k monarch points will increase your monthly income by 2-3 ducats.

Developing to 30 dev in 1450 also helps with first era goal.
 

gia257

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1 - I just started a game as Songhai to check it. 1494 to spawn Feudalism in the capital. 1484 using Spread Institution Edict for 40 years. 40/50 years with +50% tech penalty to a nation that starts at tech 2 doesn't worth. Develop it.

2 - Printing Press is the worse institution to spread. Ottos/Russia needs to force dev it or will take ages unless you are doing world conquest and has half of your land as heretics.

3 - I played a full MP campaign as Russia and I had to develop the first three institutions because Lithuania is poor and takes ages to anything cross this shitty land. Ok, I didn't had to spawn Colonialism because Sweden did it for me, but I would had.

for ottos/russia you have to hope some land closeish to you gets converted and has a different core, you take it, release an OPM vassal, which will embrace immediately, then gift it land close to your capital/institution cluster, and there you go
 

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for ottos/russia you have to hope some land closeish to you gets converted and has a different core, you take it, release an OPM vassal, which will embrace immediately, then gift it land close to your capital/institution cluster, and there you go

You're also probably getting spread from your Capital where you developed Colonialism (which looking across more of my old games from that time period and how far back Russia is, is slowing becoming a "must" in my mind for Eastern Europe) probably be getting somewhere between .2-.3 spread a month in your capital based on the 20 dev European capital modifier. For Russia, you can pop the Institution spread Icon, maybe develop to about 40%, and can probably wait the rest and still get by the time the major powers in Europe do.
 

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You're also probably getting spread from your Capital where you developed Colonialism (which looking across more of my old games from that time period and how far back Russia is, is slowing becoming a "must" in my mind for Eastern Europe) probably be getting somewhere between .2-.3 spread a month in your capital based on the 20 dev European capital modifier. For Russia, you can pop the Institution spread Icon, maybe develop to about 40%, and can probably wait the rest and still get by the time the major powers in Europe do.
with ottos you dont have to develop colonialism, early on get quest for new world, discover america, delete exploration and continue with your wc, or do the same vassal trick, guarantee granada early on wait for it to get colonialism, gift it some land next to your capital (or could use catalunya or whatever)

Especifically for ottos theres a set of land you should capture if you are interested on institution spread, in order to have the less jumps from iberia to your cluster (useful if you are also trying to unify islam early on)

Russia I havent played yet but perhaps no cbing East frisia or getting to scotland through norway could help
 
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with ottos you dont have to develop colonialism, early on get quest for new world, discover america, delete exploration and continue with your wc, or do the same vassal trick, guarantee granada early on wait for it to get colonialism, gift it some land next to your capital (or could use catalunya or whatever)

Especifically for ottos theres a set of land you should capture if you are interested on institution spread, in order to have the less jumps from iberia to your cluster (useful if you are also trying to unify islam early on)

Russia I havent played yet but perhaps no cbing East frisia or getting to scotland through norway could help

I'd probably do Frisca if I was going for that trick. British Isles might be slow on upkeep if England's lost Calais, and Sweden going Protestant is too good of an opportunity to squander for getting Printing Press, as Russia gets a mission that gives them free claim on all of Swedish Finland. In fact, Russia gets a *lot* of missions that give the free claims to stupid amounts of territory. Don'y be surprised if you have to re-fabricate at least once because Truces and AE keep you from taking all the land for the mission in 25 years.

Just make sure you don't hit negative stability with your no cb war. Russia has a disaster for Age of Reformation called Time of Troubles that starts counting down simply from having negative stability, counts down with negative stability or high (8+) WE, and does not reset unless it or another disaster triggers (not even a new age stops it, like most age-specific disasters) That can get in the way of triggering Court and Country, which is required if you want max Absolutism as Russia, since Tzardoms don't get an increase to the cap.
 

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wouldnt consider pulling an institution closer through a small vassal wc tier

its just not paying 2k mp and paying instead 2 stab, some years going to war somewhere you dont want to, and perhaps prestige

could even work against your wc to take these detours