Is this game going to only be available on Steam again? I hope not

[unmerged(12131)]

The monopolization thing really should be the biggest concern for consumers about Steam. It's a company and companies exist to make money so in the end if they think they can make more money out of you by some means and they can get away with it they will do it. Right now they are already able to force you to install their client software that is bloated with ads and social network features etc. In the future, if they maintain a complete monopoly in PC game distribution then that probably won't be the only thing they're going to be forcing on you.

You can have the settings block all ads. You do not have to participate in their Forums or be part of their social functions.

 

[mac2636]

Well, you can have convenience or be more security conscious. But that's everywhere in the world, long before the Internet came out.




I'm flattered, but I haven't posted an official mod of anything since EU2 or so. You might be mistaking me for someone else.

Sounds like a pain in the arse, but not the end of the world.

Sorry I assumed you had contributed to several mods after reading some of your posts. I still certainly respect your contributions to the boards.
Absolutely correct, not the end of the world, but a legitimate reason not to want it none the less.

I hear these stories sometimes, although I'm at the point in my life where I'm cynical enough to just assume that it's the same crap whether I'm dealing with Steam or Wal-Mart or U-Haul.

Sure those problems happen with other retailers, but with Wal-mart for example, I can easily go to Best Buy, Staples, KMart, etc by choice. Also with Steam you cannot just call to get your problem resolved, actually you can't even do an instant chat, you have to email and wait. If I had the choice to purchase from other online sites I would. Even with CK2 I refused to buy directly from Steam, but still had to use them to install and update the game, and have had issues with Steam update/Steam verify twice. But fair enough that bad customer service is not a Steam problem unique to Steam.

I just assume that mods always have to change every time things update, Steam or not. That's been par for the course for years in the industry. It's only been in the past 10 years that we've started seeing patches not break mods upon release.

I'd only be worried if Steam made mods impossible on a game that previously supported them. But I'm also assuming that such a move would alienate publishers.

Sorry, I was not meaning simple changes when a game updates, I meant mods being completely compatible with non-Steam version of game and not working at all on Steam version, e.g. some mods for Medieval Total War II, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, etc. Some of those mods took many months to be made Steam-friendly.

The monopolization problem is what used to bother me about Steam awhile back. But I realized that as it gets cheaper to set up download services that accept money (Hell, when the former stars of MST3K can set up a service to stream their content and get paid for it, the entry bar is pretty low), Steam really has no choice but to play nice with publishers or see a stampede to proprietary stuff for each publisher or competing services.

To be perfectly frank, I trust publishers less than Steam in many cases. When I realized that the DRM issue with most games had nothing to do with Steam (after Paradox started doing Stem stuff), I knew that Steam isn't the enemy. It's publishers who think installing rootkits on your system is okay who are the true Lords of the Sith in this regard.

I agree that many publishers agendas are far more nefarious than Steam, but my worry is more about Steam becoming big enough that they attain the power to make bigger demands on smaller publishers to use DRM, side program installations of their choosing. I do agree that this is a low risk and certainly not worth any level of significant concern, but still a reason for me to be wary of Steam.

I certainly appreciate your well thought out responses, and appreciate the discussion. Certainly having to use Steam is not the end of the world, but HOI4 being Steam only will, at the very least, cause me to wait for a significant amount of time after initial launch, before I purchase the game.

Thanks again for the discussion and your input.

 

[Cardus]

I think that this http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-anything!&p=17108882&viewfull=1#post17108882 puts an end to all discussion.

 

[Secret Master]

On data usage: I understand, that roaming is something Yanks (and Canadians) usually only experience if they're travelling to Europe. However, we've tons of borders here in Europe - as soon as you leave the country your provider is based you've to pay significant extra charges. Given the fact, that electromagnetic waves don't care about borders, this can kick up to 50km from the border. If you're using a network based in the right wrong country, charges can be as high as 1.50€ / 10KB. Even the ads Steam loads can equate to a week's wage if you've got bad luck.

Since I'm a Yank, help me out with something.

In the US, there are plenty of restaurants, coffee shops, even department stores that have free wifi. (Technically, it's not free, since you either buy a meal or they are tracking you in the store to see what products you browse, but it doesn't cost you roaming.) So, even as I type this post, I'm sitting in McDonald's finishing my lunch. While the bandwidth is throttled here, I'm sure as Hell not paying roaming or any kind of ridiculous charges.

I'd say 90% or more of hotels in urban areas also have free Internet (again, you paid for the room, but you can watch Netflix all you want without extra charges).

Is it that different in Europe?

 

[SirAstonMartin]

You know how i stay young, by seeing the souls of people rip apart when they hear that Paradox wont release anything besides steam!

 

[Centurion1973]

Since I'm a Yank, help me out with something.

In the US, there are plenty of restaurants, coffee shops, even department stores that have free wifi. (Technically, it's not free, since you either buy a meal or they are tracking you in the store to see what products you browse, but it doesn't cost you roaming.) So, even as I type this post, I'm sitting in McDonald's finishing my lunch. While the bandwidth is throttled here, I'm sure as Hell not paying roaming or any kind of ridiculous charges.

I'd say 90% or more of hotels in urban areas also have free Internet (again, you paid for the room, but you can watch Netflix all you want without extra charges).

Is it that different in Europe?

Its same here in EU - he likely described experience with internet via cell phone, which can be problematic if you live near border.

 

[Cardus]

Read this please: Valve’s updated Steam agreement bars class action lawsuit, but is it legal?
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ent-bars-class-action-lawsuit-but-is-it-legal

Valve took away your ability to participate in class action lawsuits against the company.

under the revised policy, customers who are unhappy with their Steam purchase and unable to resolve their dispute through normal support channels are limited to small claims court or “individual binding arbitration.” The good news is it will reimburse the cost of arbitration “under a certain amount” and regardless of the arbitrator’s decision, though that goes out the window if it’s determined the claim is frivolous or the costs unreasonable.

I agree with this comment

It’s plain bait and switch…

I was baited with an agreement I could live with, and then, after my return period has elapsed, NOW I am being told that the product I paid for is not actually the same product anymore…

When I purchased my products from Steam I was never informed that my ability to use their software or services would require me to make any new agreements or stop playing…

What will we do when Auto Manufacturers start the same practice???

You buy a car and just after the last payment is made they give you a new contract that says you can’t have a class action suit against them and if you don’t agree then you can’t drive the automobile anymore? (Will they require an internet connection at all times the automobile is in motion?)

 

[Centurion1973]

And why would anyone care? - if someone really really needed they can still sue them (after arbitration) - just not using class action lawsuit.

Also, that part is invalid in EU and most other places outside USA.

 

[Mjuice]

You can have the settings block all ads. You do not have to participate in their Forums or be part of their social functions.

I'm aware of that. The point is I don't want to have to install their software which includes these functions that I don't want to use just to play the game I bought, which is why any digital distributor that doesn't force that on you is a superior option to Steam. And further, if Steam maintains a monopoly, somewhere along the line they can just remove the option to block ads and require you to create a social network page or whatever because everyone has to use Steam anyway.

 

[Cardus]

Also, that part is invalid in EU and most other places outside USA.

Do you think so? It seems to me, instead, that Steam has a big latitute in compressing customers' rights even in Europe

It’s the second time a consumer rights group has failed to force Steam’s hand following a European Court of Justice ruling in 2012 that ruled consumers have the right to re-sell digital purchase

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/valve-triumphs-in-steam-pre-owned-games-lawsuit/0127847

I'm aware of that. The point is I don't want to have to install their software which includes these functions that I don't want to use just to play the game I bought, which is why any digital distributor that doesn't force that on you is a superior option to Steam. And further, if Steam maintains a monopoly, somewhere along the line they can just remove the option to block ads and require you to create a social network page or whatever because everyone has to use Steam anyway.

I agree

I team think that Steam is a sort of malware := Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt computer operation, gather sensitive information, or gain access to private computer systems.[1] It can appear in the form of code, scripts, active content, and other software.[2] 'Malware' is a general term used to refer to a variety of forms of hostile or intrusive software

 

[Centurion1973]

1. Do you think so? It seems to me, instead, that Steam has a big latitute in compressing customers' rights even in Europe
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/valve-triumphs-in-steam-pre-owned-games-lawsuit/0127847

2. I team think that Steam is a sort of malware := Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt computer operation, gather sensitive information, or gain access to private computer systems.[1] It can appear in the form of code, scripts, active content, and other software.[2] 'Malware' is a general term used to refer to a variety of forms of hostile or intrusive software

1. Well, you clearly didnt even read Steam subscriber agreement becuase its written in caps there:

SECTION 12 CONTAINS A BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER. IT AFFECTS YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS. PLEASE READ IT. IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, SOME OR ALL OF SECTION 12 MIGHT NOT APPLY TO YOU. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LIVE IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, SECTION 12 DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.

2. You clearly have absolutly no understanding what is and isnt malware - Steam doesnt gain access to PC unless you grant it permission (just like any other legit software) to install itself and it doesnt gather sensitive info (personal info, access to internet banking etc.) - obtaining usage stats, crash logs etc. is normal for modern software and such data are not considered sensitive or personal. HW specs and list of installed software is only collected if you agree (opt-in) to participate in Steam HW/SW survey.

 

[piratefish]

Unless things have changed significantly with Steam during the last couple of years, I absolutely hate it.

I purchased a game on Steam about 2 or 3 years ago, and it wasn't even playable because of massive lag times (which were not caused by my hardware).

I personally don't like having to go out on the internet to play a game - I want to be able to load it on my machine, and then play it from my machine without needing to access any third party's servers. What was wrong with the original method of purchasing and downloading HoI from Gamers Gate?

Am I missing something? Has Steam changed since I last used it? Will I be able to download HoI 4 directly to my machine and play it from there, without needing to access Steam's servers whenever I want to play a game I bought? Maybe I am simply misunderstanding how Steam works now, but the idea of having to connect to Steam's servers to play a game I own does not appeal to me.

 

[unmerged(12131)]

Unless things have changed significantly with Steam during the last couple of years, I absolutely hate it.

I purchased a game on Steam about 2 or 3 years ago, and it wasn't even playable because of massive lag times (which were not caused by my hardware).

I personally don't like having to go out on the internet to play a game - I want to be able to load it on my machine, and then play it from my machine without needing to access any third party's servers. What was wrong with the original method of purchasing and downloading HoI from Gamers Gate?

Am I missing something? Has Steam changed since I last used it? Will I be able to download HoI 4 directly to my machine and play it from there, without needing to access Steam's servers whenever I want to play a game I bought? Maybe I am simply misunderstanding how Steam works now, but the idea of having to connect to Steam's servers to play a game I own does not appeal to me.

You can set up Steam games to be played only offline. However, then you will miss all the game upgrades. In addition, at times clicking on the game icon on my desktop doesn't work for some reason. Then just click on the Steam icon and one can run the game from their Steam Library page with the desktop icon being restored to full function in the future.

Problems with non-steam games for me were the destructive DRM on the game disks. Plus, many times the game disks stopped working altogether. At least one of my PC's was destroyed by game disk DRM and I had to buy a new PC.

Some game disks could only be installed to one PC. If one purchased a new PC, the game disk would not work anymore. One of my chess game disks happened to get invalidated that way and I will never purchase that game again.

Finally, I like Steam tracking my game usage hours and the usage hours of my friends and relatives. Without Steam that information would be unavailable.

All things considered, Steam is far better than game publisher DRM disks and has now carried me through 3 generations of PC's.

 

[Centurion1973]

Unless things have changed significantly with Steam during the last couple of years, I absolutely hate it.

I purchased a game on Steam about 2 or 3 years ago, and it wasn't even playable because of massive lag times (which were not caused by my hardware).

I personally don't like having to go out on the internet to play a game - I want to be able to load it on my machine, and then play it from my machine without needing to access any third party's servers. What was wrong with the original method of purchasing and downloading HoI from Gamers Gate?

Am I missing something? Has Steam changed since I last used it? Will I be able to download HoI 4 directly to my machine and play it from there, without needing to access Steam's servers whenever I want to play a game I bought? Maybe I am simply misunderstanding how Steam works now, but the idea of having to connect to Steam's servers to play a game I own does not appeal to me.

Unless playing MP game via their servers, Steam only verify that you own that game - it never had any measurable impact on game performance - so if you SP game lagged it was either problem in game itself or with your PC.

 

[Ciaphas Cain]

What was wrong with the original method of purchasing and downloading HoI from Gamers Gate?

There are less people using Gamersgate and it's easier for the developers to maintain the game because they don't have to build a seperate patch but can instead just give the complete new version of the game to Steam and Steam will synchronise your version of the game with the newer one. Also with the new DLC policy they had to introduce a really awkward ingame shop for the Gamersgate version while handling DLC with Steam is also easier.

 

[shierholzer]

Since I'm a Yank, help me out with something. [...] Is it that different in Europe?

As Centurion already noted, I was after Internet via cellphones (for certain business notebooks, there are even stock options to add a WWAN modem).
And to disappoint you: Finding something that's a) free and b) allows you to even visit a domain known for distributing videos is almost impossible here.

Its same here in EU - he likely described experience with internet via cell phone, which can be problematic if you live near border.

Basically yes. Cellphone internet near borders (up to 50km inland if you're unlucky) can be extremely painful - and we've a ton of borders here (even some countries like Luxembourg where most people use either a french, german or belgian provider, just because they're so freakingly small).
My personal experience is, that free hotspots are quite common in urban areas as well. However, as soon as you leave the urban agglomerations, hotspots are basically restricted to american companies like McDonalds - or payable. Yes, hotspots are growing on the old continent as well, however it nowhere near the point where people could use them as their only network connection. I've seen even fairly big hotel chains to charge 15€/hour for a crappy hotspot (speed-wise) here - back in America it's hard to even find someone charging you money for your wifi.

 

[Centurion1973]

Edit: slightly OT

Where you get connectivity isnt Steam issue.

 

[shierholzer]

Plenty of WiFi connections still use WEP

Plenty of people use Windows / Aren't willing to break law / Aren't willing to spend lot's of money for AirPcap.

 

[Cardus]

1. Well, you clearly didnt even read Steam subscriber agreement becuase its written in caps there:

Maybe I didn't read subscriber agreement but you certainly didn't understand what I posted:

Do you think so? It seems to me, instead, that Steam has a big latitute in compressing customers' rights even in Europe

2. You clearly have absolutly no understanding what is and isnt malware - Steam doesnt gain access to PC unless you grant it permission (just like any other legit software) to install itself and it doesnt gather sensitive info (personal info, access to internet banking etc.) - obtaining usage stats, crash logs etc. is normal for modern software and such data are not considered sensitive or personal. HW specs and list of installed software is only collected if you agree (opt-in) to participate in Steam HW/SW survey.

You clearly have no clue about privacy and personal data

 

[Secret Master]

Am I missing something? Has Steam changed since I last used it? Will I be able to download HoI 4 directly to my machine and play it from there, without needing to access Steam's servers whenever I want to play a game I bought? Maybe I am simply misunderstanding how Steam works now, but the idea of having to connect to Steam's servers to play a game I own does not appeal to me.

Yes, you missed my post earlier on how EU4 and CK2 work on Steam.

Download and install the game. Back up the files. Delete Steam. Use the files you backed up.

You only have to go back on Steam if you want patches or multiplayer functionality.