Is this game going to only be available on Steam again? I hope not

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Bluestreak2k5

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If it takes a programmer 600 hours to perform the tasks you have described, then, in my personal and humble opinion, they are not worth minimum wage, let alone $80K. I'm well aware that Paradox is in it FOR PROFIT, but if it takes more than 600 man/hours to write an installer there is no way that they can make software profitably. (I am prepared for all the posts that I understand nothing about programming)

Well, developers taking 600 hours for writing an installer should be fired asap.
However those 24k$ have to pay for everything - most noteably supporting users unable to read the manual (and there are suprisingly much of them). Steam takes away most of that requests, since game install is Valve's problem on Steam. ((other people who are paid by that 24k$ include PR guys, accountants, lawyers, etc))

Your assuming that 600 hours is only used for an installer...

That's 600 hours for ALL of the support needs for this distribution. 600 hours to create separate patches for this distribution, plus the sales people negotiating with the distribution company and setting up the deal, plus the project manager keeping track of all of this and planning this, etc etc etc. Then after this is all working you actually need a QA team to test this out make sure it's all working, and QA people to test that the patch that they have to zip up and post on the forums works for this distribution.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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You are really trying to force me off the web altogether! But "the good of the customer"? Sorry, that is just stuff, its for the good of the developer making the almighty dollar, nothing more.

No its how the web makes money for anyone period.

It costs money to support the browser you currently use, if we had no idea what browser people used then we would pick 1 and if you weren't using it you would be the one SOL. Then the internet would end up in segmented branches because some companies would believe that only customers use IE 9 and others that only think that customers use Chrome. This would be bad for the consumer you.

Yes we track all of this I listed and much more.

The Ad you click, well Google or someone negoitates with advertisement companies for that AD space. If you didn't know how many people clicked it or even saw it then you would never know how much $ value this Ad brings you.

The newsletter email you get from a company, that link in it is tracked because we want to know how many people are actually interested in this. This takes hours and hours to write plan, write up, and send out the 1 newsletter you get. Since we track the clicks, we know exactly the $ value it brings us versus the $ value it cost us.

The webpage you visit, we track every page you visit, so we know the pages that are the most attractive to customers. This is important for redesigning, and for the customer because we will make the pages being loaded the most the home page or links on the home page to make it easier. We know how many visitors we have within an hour, or a day, and this justifies the $ value we spend on a website. It also helps the developers because the developers can justify the changes made. If you change the site and have 23% more traffic and 2% of your visitors are clicking Ad's, and 5% are buying items from your online store, well you just increased your companies sales by 23% with the increased traffic.

We usually even track when you start filling out forms and don't finish them, such as Filling out a form on a checkout page. There might be 2 or 3 steps, and since its all tracked we can see that 15% of customers drop out between Step 2 and Step 3. This is 15% potential sales lost and now that we know this we can make the steps easier or investigate if there is an error.

If you want a good example, recently I was in a meeting discussing our platform redesign for autos and they wanted to implement Chat functionality with dealers for both mobile and Desktop. I simply asked 1 question, what % of customers are visiting these pages from mobile, and they said 2-5%, and that was enough to stop all discussion about mobile. That's easily 30,000 to 50,000 we saved right there in planning, developing, and testing for something the users aren't even using.

If we didn't know all of this, if we didn't know that IE browsers were encountering errors on our site, then every time we made any change at all we would have to test every single piece of functionality on every single browser that we choose to support. This would never happen, nothing would ever get done, and the consumer would be the one losing out.

This is the same tracking Steam does for publishers like Paradox. Paradox knows that most users that buy the game use a 1200 by 720 resolution or higher, so they can develop a game based on 1200 by 720 instead of a 800 by 600. They know that 80% of users have AMD cards, so they can focus most of their testing on AMD's. All of this makes for a better game in the end.

NONE OF THIS can be tracked back to you though, I could never look at any of this and see that USER Bluestreak2k5 uses X and Y and does Z. This is all generalized information that is tracked and put together so we can get big picture ideas and make business decisions on this, the same way Paradox made a business decision to only support Steam because they knew the amount of sales from Steam, sales from other places, the cost involved, and came to the conclusion it was a net loss to support other platforms.
 
Last edited:

Svip

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Of course, there are ways to circumvent such tracking systems, by manipulating with the information your browser sends to every website. This is not difficult. In addition, disabling JavaScript and third party cookies goes a long way in preventing most tracking.

Still, your IP and browser's "print" will make you identifiable amongst sites even if you have JavaScript and third party cookies disabled, and even if you manipulate with your user agent string. For that, you can use the Tor Browser, by hiding your origin through the Tor network, if you desire.

But generally speaking, selective disabling of JavaScript (that is; not all JavaScript, only JavaScript you trust) and third party cookies should go a long way.
 

FOARP

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Steam is in many ways the viable alternative to all the crap other publisher's would pull on you...EA having that big a monoply ? No thanks. And what bullshit have they actually pulled on you ? On Origin you have to pay 50$/£/Euro's for any game, while on Steam you get the same game(if there) for 25%-75% off on their big sales.

Can't we just let this thread die? It's just a place for people to rant about how much they hate Steam (again).

EDIT: Awww crap, did I just bump this thread?
 

Kagernaut

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No its how the web makes money for anyone period.

It costs money to support the browser you currently use, if we had no idea what browser people used then we would pick 1 and if you weren't using it you would be the one SOL. Then the internet would end up in segmented branches because some companies would believe that only customers use IE 9 and others that only think that customers use Chrome. This would be bad for the consumer you.

Yes we track all of this I listed and much more.

The Ad you click, well Google or someone negoitates with advertisement companies for that AD space. If you didn't know how many people clicked it or even saw it then you would never know how much $ value this Ad brings you.

The newsletter email you get from a company, that link in it is tracked because we want to know how many people are actually interested in this. This takes hours and hours to write plan, write up, and send out the 1 newsletter you get. Since we track the clicks, we know exactly the $ value it brings us versus the $ value it cost us.

The webpage you visit, we track every page you visit, so we know the pages that are the most attractive to customers. This is important for redesigning, and for the customer because we will make the pages being loaded the most the home page or links on the home page to make it easier. We know how many visitors we have within an hour, or a day, and this justifies the $ value we spend on a website. It also helps the developers because the developers can justify the changes made. If you change the site and have 23% more traffic and 2% of your visitors are clicking Ad's, and 5% are buying items from your online store, well you just increased your companies sales by 23% with the increased traffic.

We usually even track when you start filling out forms and don't finish them, such as Filling out a form on a checkout page. There might be 2 or 3 steps, and since its all tracked we can see that 15% of customers drop out between Step 2 and Step 3. This is 15% potential sales lost and now that we know this we can make the steps easier or investigate if there is an error.

If you want a good example, recently I was in a meeting discussing our platform redesign for autos and they wanted to implement Chat functionality with dealers for both mobile and Desktop. I simply asked 1 question, what % of customers are visiting these pages from mobile, and they said 2-5%, and that was enough to stop all discussion about mobile. That's easily 30,000 to 50,000 we saved right there in planning, developing, and testing for something the users aren't even using.

If we didn't know all of this, if we didn't know that IE browsers were encountering errors on our site, then every time we made any change at all we would have to test every single piece of functionality on every single browser that we choose to support. This would never happen, nothing would ever get done, and the consumer would be the one losing out.

This is the same tracking Steam does for publishers like Paradox. Paradox knows that most users that buy the game use a 1200 by 720 resolution or higher, so they can develop a game based on 1200 by 720 instead of a 800 by 600. They know that 80% of users have AMD cards, so they can focus most of their testing on AMD's. All of this makes for a better game in the end.

NONE OF THIS can be tracked back to you though, I could never look at any of this and see that USER Bluestreak2k5 uses X and Y and does Z. This is all generalized information that is tracked and put together so we can get big picture ideas and make business decisions on this, the same way Paradox made a business decision to only support Steam because they knew the amount of sales from Steam, sales from other places, the cost involved, and came to the conclusion it was a net loss to support other platforms.

I think we all just got beat with a widsom stick :p
 

podcat

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I think we all just got beat with a widsom stick :p

yeah, good post by Bluestreak2k5. Without metrics so much stuff would never be improved. We base a lot of decisions on it. For example we would have dropped windows XP and Dx9 by now like most of the industry if there wasnt still so many players using it (please stop using windows xp so I dont have to code directx9 anymore its so bad compared to DX10/11)

As for steam, count on hoi4 being steam only/steam wrapped unless someone makes a better service that doesnt take up a ton of our resources to support. Valve is a great company that listen to their customers (you) as well as partners (us) and try to continuously improve things
 

Centurion1973

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yeah, good post by Bluestreak2k5. Without metrics so much stuff would never be improved. We base a lot of decisions on it. For example we would have dropped windows XP and Dx9 by now like most of the industry if there wasnt still so many players using it (please stop using windows xp so I dont have to code directx9 anymore its so bad compared to DX10/11)

As for steam, count on hoi4 being steam only/steam wrapped unless someone makes a better service that doesnt take up a ton of our resources to support. Valve is a great company that listen to their customers (you) as well as partners (us) and try to continuously improve things

In Steam HW survey Win XP have under 6% marketshare. What is % of HoI3/EU4 that still use XP?

How quickly/slowly is that WinXP marketshare declining?
 

podcat

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In Steam HW survey Win XP have under 6% marketshare. What is % of HoI3/EU4 that still use XP?

How quickly/slowly is that WinXP marketshare declining?

was something like 12% if I recall correctly
 

Weijun

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As for steam, count on hoi4 being steam only/steam wrapped unless someone makes a better service that doesnt take up a ton of our resources to support. Valve is a great company that listen to their customers (you) as well as partners (us) and try to continuously improve things

(I hope that) everyone recognizes that Paradox games as Steam only is the reality of the situation. Since GG sales for CK2 were disappointing, Paradox is clearly not going to do it again. (In fairness, though, the GG version was introduced at the last minute and all the non-Steam retailers had to give Steam codes. I could imagine it could have turned out somewhat differently, but we will never know.)

That said, Paradox should also recognize that some customers will continue to be unhappy about having their preferred method of digital distribution dropped. If Paradox had offered a Linux version of their games for six years then decided to go Windows only, then Linux users would not be pleased. No amount of cajoling that Windows is a superior platform and better for the games overall would mollify those who lost their preferred platform.

My hope is that Paradox will work out an arrangement with GOG someday. For many who do not like Steam, GOG is an acceptable alternative.
 

RickInVA

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No its how the web makes money for anyone period.

It costs money to support the browser you currently use, if we had no idea what browser people used then we would pick 1 and if you weren't using it you would be the one SOL. Then the internet would end up in segmented branches because some companies would believe that only customers use IE 9 and others that only think that customers use Chrome. This would be bad for the consumer you.

Yes we track all of this I listed and much more.

The Ad you click, well Google or someone negoitates with advertisement companies for that AD space. If you didn't know how many people clicked it or even saw it then you would never know how much $ value this Ad brings you.

The newsletter email you get from a company, that link in it is tracked because we want to know how many people are actually interested in this. This takes hours and hours to write plan, write up, and send out the 1 newsletter you get. Since we track the clicks, we know exactly the $ value it brings us versus the $ value it cost us.

The webpage you visit, we track every page you visit, so we know the pages that are the most attractive to customers. This is important for redesigning, and for the customer because we will make the pages being loaded the most the home page or links on the home page to make it easier. We know how many visitors we have within an hour, or a day, and this justifies the $ value we spend on a website. It also helps the developers because the developers can justify the changes made. If you change the site and have 23% more traffic and 2% of your visitors are clicking Ad's, and 5% are buying items from your online store, well you just increased your companies sales by 23% with the increased traffic.

We usually even track when you start filling out forms and don't finish them, such as Filling out a form on a checkout page. There might be 2 or 3 steps, and since its all tracked we can see that 15% of customers drop out between Step 2 and Step 3. This is 15% potential sales lost and now that we know this we can make the steps easier or investigate if there is an error.

If you want a good example, recently I was in a meeting discussing our platform redesign for autos and they wanted to implement Chat functionality with dealers for both mobile and Desktop. I simply asked 1 question, what % of customers are visiting these pages from mobile, and they said 2-5%, and that was enough to stop all discussion about mobile. That's easily 30,000 to 50,000 we saved right there in planning, developing, and testing for something the users aren't even using.

If we didn't know all of this, if we didn't know that IE browsers were encountering errors on our site, then every time we made any change at all we would have to test every single piece of functionality on every single browser that we choose to support. This would never happen, nothing would ever get done, and the consumer would be the one losing out.

This is the same tracking Steam does for publishers like Paradox. Paradox knows that most users that buy the game use a 1200 by 720 resolution or higher, so they can develop a game based on 1200 by 720 instead of a 800 by 600. They know that 80% of users have AMD cards, so they can focus most of their testing on AMD's. All of this makes for a better game in the end.

NONE OF THIS can be tracked back to you though, I could never look at any of this and see that USER Bluestreak2k5 uses X and Y and does Z. This is all generalized information that is tracked and put together so we can get big picture ideas and make business decisions on this, the same way Paradox made a business decision to only support Steam because they knew the amount of sales from Steam, sales from other places, the cost involved, and came to the conclusion it was a net loss to support other platforms.

This is certainly a great synopsis of how tracking is used. I would disagree, however, that things tracked cannot be tracked back to the individual user. If that was the case there would be no targeted ads. I find it amazingly frustrating that should I visit any e-commerce site that for the next month I get an endless series of ads for that site. It annoys me so much, that I will not buy from sites that do so. If I knew how to stop it, I would.

I'm sure to many of you I appear like a (slightly) more modern Luddite. Many view these things you speak about as improvements, I think it is mostly a lot of useless fluff. Even (or maybe especially) in games, I find that modern games are certainly full of better graphics and such, but is the game any better? Many of the games I had for my Commodore 64 (in 1984) were more enjoyable (determined by hours played) than games I buy now. More modern is not always a marker for better. And if you have to track how long it took me to write this post to make "improvements", I wish you just wouldn't.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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This is certainly a great synopsis of how tracking is used. I would disagree, however, that things tracked cannot be tracked back to the individual user. If that was the case there would be no targeted ads. I find it amazingly frustrating that should I visit any e-commerce site that for the next month I get an endless series of ads for that site. It annoys me so much, that I will not buy from sites that do so. If I knew how to stop it, I would.

I'm sure to many of you I appear like a (slightly) more modern Luddite. Many view these things you speak about as improvements, I think it is mostly a lot of useless fluff. Even (or maybe especially) in games, I find that modern games are certainly full of better graphics and such, but is the game any better? Many of the games I had for my Commodore 64 (in 1984) were more enjoyable (determined by hours played) than games I buy now. More modern is not always a marker for better. And if you have to track how long it took me to write this post to make "improvements", I wish you just wouldn't.

Well that's because its not easy to explain why this is happening. Short answer is it is not actually Paradox or any website you are visiting tracking you, it is Google and Yahoo.

Your IP is tracked, so everytime you search for anything the search engine knows this is your computer. Google and Yahoo also sell Ad's and adspace to companies and pays the websites that host these Ad's money to do so. On top of this they have actually linked your Gmail/Yahoo account to your computer, thus being able to identify who is actually signed on at the moment, because most people stay signed on to their email. Once this link is established though, you won't need to actually be logged on because they still know your IP address.

So now they know who you are by your email, what sites you have been to, and what you are searching for, thus since they sell and control the Ads, they target you with things you are searching for or have recently searched for because it increases the Click through rate on those ads significantly, which makes their clients (the companies advertising) very happy because they get more $ value from the $ money they spent advertising with Google.

So if you don't want to be targeted, Don't ever sign onto an Email account from your computer, and use a Dynamic IP address that will change every 24 hours, thats how long a router stores the IP address. You could also manually change your IP address everyday, but this will only stop targeted Ad's from the day before, as anytime you search for anything this day you will likely start getting targeted Ads.

You could also use a public Computer at a library or something where the amount of people searching and using it would just screw up their algorithm trying to figure out what your trying to look for.
 

shierholzer

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NONE OF THIS can be tracked back to you though, I could never look at any of this and see that USER Bluestreak2k5 uses X and Y and does Z.
Let's stay real. Steam can reference this kind of stuff to your account, in fact anybody wih full read access to their servers can. Personally, I don't think Valve is taking that risk, but they're able to if they wish.

as MS is stopping support for it(or has already).
Already happened. The remaining XP share however won't decrease significantly till XP get's insta-infected, in the very moment of going online, again. And don't forget the few XP4ever geeks who will sit on their XPx64 till Server '03 hits end of service in five years.
 

Cardus

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Let's stay real. Steam can reference this kind of stuff to your account, in fact anybody wih full read access to their servers can. Personally, I don't think Valve is taking that risk, but they're able to if they wish.
Why risk? Steam is authorized to see everything. They can do that but they likely won't do that as the single customer means nothing.
 
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Cardus

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And the NSA is authorized to see anything that Steam can see, including what the steam client can see on your harddrive :D
:) But that's why I refuse to get a Steam account, my mobile is switched on only when I need it (and when I don't need it I remove the battery), on my browser java script is blocked, etc., etc.

I try my best to protect my privacy but obviously NSA can track me anyway in a couple of seconds :eek:hmy:
 

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:) But that's why I refuse to get a Steam account, my mobile is switched on only when I need it (and when I don't need it I remove the battery), on my browser java script is blocked, etc., etc.

If you use an old mobile phone, it cannot track crap about you. So if you've bought a smartphone, you've made a mistake if you are that concerned.

Moreover, JavaScript itself isn't the only thing that tracks you in browsers. Cookies do far more tracking as well as browser footprints (i.e. something to identify you with). You can test how unique your browser is here. This information is sent by your browser to every website. It is usually plenty enough for most tracking companies.
 

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Steam is the best thing that happened to PDS, no more disks ,no more launcher updates, no more checksum idiocy, 1.5-6 mb download rate, online easy access to friends, and last but not least the verify game cache that will reset it to the basic install version. On top of that the products to customer supply line for PDS is way shorter, costs less FMH, so they can offer their products more cheaply and faster to us (let's hope they do that ;)).

Futhermore steam doesnt even have to be started for PDS game to be played.

But maybe i'm used to it, i've been using ever since valve introduced it back in 2004.
 
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