Is this game going to only be available on Steam again? I hope not

[Kagernaut]

Well there's an option in Steam to backup your local gamefiles to CDs or DVDs.

Hmm, I was not aware of that one. Another great steam feature

Seriously though, as a HOI3 MPer, I am very much glad that HOI4 will be on steam. I intend to eventually play it on MP, and HOI3 without steam support constantly fails---the metasever was unreliable, and connection by IP even with a good connection is proon of out of sync issues as well as random crashes.

Steam can provide alot of stability with this.

I am loathe to trust in a third party to let me play my games, but so far, Steam has really delivered for me. I can't fault them, their business model is fair and strong, and they provide great value to developers and customers both. They're great IMO.

If they stopped being so, I would not buy my games from them.

 

[RELee]

So you've invented a generator running with thin air?

No. I still use the old ones that use gasoline.

 

[anam]

Well there's an option in Steam to backup your local gamefiles to CDs or DVDs.

Oki it's seems i WAS a bit fuzzy there, sorry :rofl: . I was talking about publishers selling their software on discs. But how long do you think it will take before you won't see writable CD/Dvd's for sale anymore too ?

 

[sunsterson]

Hoi4 or don't use steam. Nuff said

 

[shierholzer]

But how long do you think it will take before you won't see writable CD/Dvd's for sale anymore too ?

There are still 3.5'' floppies around (yes, new ones as well) - not as cheap as they were during their golden age, though.
DVD's may disappear in a few years, due to the fact, that Blurays finally hit the mass market. CDs will take decades to disappear, maybe even longer.

 

[waffles92]

You can run any Paradox game without Steam being up too you know. Once you have it, just navigate to the folder it was downloaded in, and click the launcher. Steam won't try to load either. But seriously, Steam isn't so bad.

 

[RickInVA]

Because the non-steam version is a separate version that needs separate development time. It doesn't make much money if that money, it costs them money to have to divide the team to work on two seperate versions. I believe it was annoying they had to divide resources 50/50 to work on the two when one is 98% and the other is 2%. From a financial standpoint they lose money for that 2% of sales, and from a development standpoint its means more time working on making the two versions equal rather than focusing attention on one version.

Well, I am not a programmer, but it just doesn't make logical sense to me that it would be twice the work. Every line of code has to be written differently for Steam vs. printing on a CD? I just can't believe that.

 

[Secret Master]

Well, I am not a programmer, but it just doesn't make logical sense to me that it would be twice the work. Every line of code has to be written differently for Steam vs. printing on a CD? I just can't believe that.

The problem with physical media isn't the same as the problem with non-Steam digital distribution.

Paradox said that they didn't make enough money from digital non-Steam sales to justify the labor of making extra patches or making the game available from those distributors. You'll have to take their word for it.

Physical media (CD and DVD) isn't just about the cost of putting it on the media. It's about the cost of shelf space at places that sell this stuff or the cost of shipping it to people.

If you don't already know, you can do some reading on the issues related to selling physical copies of games in stores. If you aren't either pushing a really cheap product or one of 3-4 AAA publishers with the clout to get shelf space, it's expensive and difficult to make money doing it that way (PC games at any rate; I don't know if the same dynamics are in play with consoles).

 

[RickInVA]

Economics for you:

I'm assuming HOI3 sold 100,000 copies, because the top 10 games on Steam in 2011 were 200,000 units sold or higher, and HOI4 won't be one of the most sold games on Steam in 2015 IMO. It also makes the math easier.

Assuming that all units were sold at 39.99, this results in 3,999,000 total revenue from everywhere.

98% from Steam: 3,919,020
2% sales from DISK distribution like Gamestop: 79,980

Now we factor in the actual revenue:
Steam takes 30%: 3,919,020 * .7 = 2,743,314 net revenue to Paradox.
DISK distributors take 70%: 79,980 * .3 = 23,994 net revenue to Paradox

Now assuming the average salary of a developer is $80,000 (depending on where your based, this is minimum amount in NYC for a developer with 2-3 years experience) working on the DISK version, this equates to about $40 an hour.
23,994 / 40 = 600 hours of development time to make the game work on DISK version. This includes the installer, writing all the registry files etc. After 600 hours of time spent this entire VERSION of the game is a NET LOSS to the company. Will it take more then 3 months for 1 person? YEP!

Let's not forget about separate Patches for this version as well, because they don't update through Steam.

So basically to sum up the above:
Don't buy the game if you don't like Steam because your a NET LOSS to the company. They are a FOR PROFIT company and simply did the math on how hours of development time it took to making another version of the game VERSUS the PROFIT made.

If it takes a programmer 600 hours to perform the tasks you have described, then, in my personal and humble opinion, they are not worth minimum wage, let alone $80K. I'm well aware that Paradox is in it FOR PROFIT, but if it takes more than 600 man/hours to write an installer there is no way that they can make software profitably. (I am prepared for all the posts that I understand nothing about programming)

 

[RickInVA]

You can't disable it, it's built into all Browsers. How do you think we determine whether your using a Internet Explorer 6 or a Internet Explorer 10? Those websites look completely different because we have to know as web developers what your using. Just because we build something to look good in one browser does not mean it will work in every browser ever made, we have to continually update these seperate versions so that all Users that are using all of these Browsers can view the website, and once a specific browser reaches 5% we no longer support that browser.

And Why not ASK? HAHAHAHA How much email do you get a day? How many popups do you get a day? We actually have numbers for all this as well because we track all of these Clicks. A popup might get a 2% answer rate, An Email 5% answer rate. So using this we would never know what 95%+ of our users are using. We could never make any type of business decision on this ever.

This is good for the consumer that this is tracked, it's why everything is tracked. We track your clicks, we track what pages you goto, what pages you come from, how long did you spend on the page, what browser are you using, what emails we sent you did you click from, what popups on our site did you click, what advertisements did you click on our site.

If we didn't know any of this information the internet would not be very good, but none of this information can be tracked back to an individual BY US. This is the same thing Steam does, there is no harm in it, it is good for publishers and consumers.

You are really trying to force me off the web altogether! But "the good of the customer"? Sorry, that is just stuff, its for the good of the developer making the almighty dollar, nothing more.

 

[shierholzer]

(I am prepared for all the posts that I understand nothing about programming)

Well, developers taking 600 hours for writing an installer should be fired asap.
However those 24k$ have to pay for everything - most noteably supporting users unable to read the manual (and there are suprisingly much of them). Steam takes away most of that requests, since game install is Valve's problem on Steam. ((other people who are paid by that 24k$ include PR guys, accountants, lawyers, etc))

 

[RickInVA]

The problem with physical media isn't the same as the problem with non-Steam digital distribution.

Paradox said that they didn't make enough money from digital non-Steam sales to justify the labor of making extra patches or making the game available from those distributors. You'll have to take their word for it.

Physical media (CD and DVD) isn't just about the cost of putting it on the media. It's about the cost of shelf space at places that sell this stuff or the cost of shipping it to people.

If you don't already know, you can do some reading on the issues related to selling physical copies of games in stores. If you aren't either pushing a really cheap product or one of 3-4 AAA publishers with the clout to get shelf space, it's expensive and difficult to make money doing it that way (PC games at any rate; I don't know if the same dynamics are in play with consoles).

I appreciate the reasoned reply. However, in-store retail is not the only way to sell outside of Steam. Physical disks can be distributed by sale on Amazon or any other e-commerce site. Similarly digital downloads can be offered through a variety of outlets. Even if you accept that Steam accounts for 75% of the digital download market, that suggests that being Steam exclusive is depriving a publisher of up to 25% of their potential sales. I fully understand that companies are out to maximize profit, not sales (at least if they are smart, some do just go for sales). I also take as fact that, as stated, 98% of CK2 was sold on Steam. What that tells me is that Paradox is not maximizing their distribution, not that they should go 100% Steam. Companies make the decisions that seem the best for them at that time. They are not always correct, sometimes they make the wrong choice.

 

[Secret Master]

I appreciate the reasoned reply. However, in-store retail is not the only way to sell outside of Steam. Physical disks can be distributed by sale on Amazon or any other e-commerce site. Similarly digital downloads can be offered through a variety of outlets. Even if you accept that Steam accounts for 75% of the digital download market, that suggests that being Steam exclusive is depriving a publisher of up to 25% of their potential sales. I fully understand that companies are out to maximize profit, not sales (at least if they are smart, some do just go for sales). I also take as fact that, as stated, 98% of CK2 was sold on Steam. What that tells me is that Paradox is not maximizing their distribution, not that they should go 100% Steam. Companies make the decisions that seem the best for them at that time. They are not always correct, sometimes they make the wrong choice.

There are shipping costs associated with physical distribution, though. Either the customers pay the shipping (making it more expensive) or Paradox eats the cost (cutting profitability).

And you are right: it could be a poor business choice for Paradox.

I will say this, though. A very long time ago, they published under Strategy First. When that stopped being good for them, they went into the publishing business themselves. If Steam stops being the good deal that they think it is, then I'm guessing they will move into digital distribution again. No business plan survives contact with the shareholders or market forces.

 

[Strager]

We agree that downloading stuff from the Internet won't work wile you're offline, aren't we? If you're concerned about Steam telling Valve stuff about your computer (which is a valid concern btw, Steam talks about pretty much everything it can see) - grab your favourite VM software, go to http://modern.ie/ and download a VM image from there (don't worry about piracy, Bill Gates himself is delivering you that image).?

Apparently we don't all agree since people keep suggesting stuff like using the CD Burn feature which still requires you to activate the "backup" with your steam account.

Its more than keeping them out of my business - it's also the fact that Steam will not be around forever. Already i've had games I've purchased where the developer decides to "turn off the game" and because it has some kind of multiplayer component or DRM it becomes completely unplayable. Giving that kind of control to any company just aint happening. Granted the game itself doesn't require a connection (in this generation at least) but how long until steam starts mandating that new titles must "check in" once in awhile.... it's a slippery slope and we are already off the edge.

 

[Secret Master]

Apparently we don't all agree since people keep suggesting stuff like using the CD Burn feature which still requires you to activate the "backup" with your steam account.

Its more than keeping them out of my business - it's also the fact that Steam will not be around forever. Already i've had games I've purchased where the developer decides to "turn off the game" and because it has some kind of multiplayer component or DRM it becomes completely unplayable.

I know what you mean. It's almost like I never posted a solution to this very problem, or backed up my copy of CK2 this very night onto my thumb drive so I can take it in to work and read the new event files for the new DLC while I'm at lunch. Wifi has been spotty this week at my job, so I don't want to be unable to entertain myself while slurping down some fattening food to earn my gluttony trait.

 

[Darkrenown]

Even if Steam did explode tomorrow, you don't need it to run our games anyway.

Will Steam at some unspecified point start being jerks for no reason and insist on more DRM when their trend so far has been to open their platform more and more, AND somehow keep all their market share? Seems pretty unlikely on either point. If you get fixated on every possible bad thing that might happen you'll never get anything done.

What if the world ends next week? I'd better stop working on HoI4 because if the world might before we're done, there's no point!

Is it possible Steam will go out of business? All things are possible. Is it at all likely or something you should base your purchasing decisions around? Nope. How does that even work? Will anyone, in 2025 think to themselves "Hmm, HoI IV has been out for 10 years now and Steam is still around. Damn, I should have got it! Maybe I'll get it now...No! What if Steam dies tomorrow!?" Or perhaps in 2033 "Ha, Valve's HQ was totally destroyed in today's Energon strike from the Plutonians, I guess that's the end of Steam! I knew I was right not to buy HoI4 all those years ago, even though I heard it was pretty good and 18 years would have been a pretty good run for $30, and I would still be able to play it now even without Steam. I was right!"

 

[Svip]

Is it possible Steam will go out of business? All things are possible. Is it at all likely or something you should base your purchasing decisions around? Nope. How does that even work? Will anyone, in 2025 think to themselves "Hmm, HoI IV has been out for 10 years now and Steam is still around. Damn, I should have got it! Maybe I'll get it now...No! What if Steam dies tomorrow!?" Or perhaps in 2033 "Ha, Valve's HQ was totally destroyed in today's Energon strike from the Plutonians, I guess that's the end of Steam! I knew I was right not to buy HoI4 all those years ago, even though I heard it was pretty good and 18 years would have been a pretty good run for $30, and I would still be able to play it now even without Steam. I was right!"

Yes, but in 2033, I still have my original copy of Rayman on floppies! Sure, no machine I have can take floppies, but I still have the game! So there!

 

[Ciaphas Cain]

Yes, but in 2033, I still have my original copy of Rayman on floppies! Sure, no machine I have can take floppies, but I still have the game! So there!

CD's and DVDs also aren't made to last forever. There's also other physical problems: I have a nice DVD case of Rome: TW in my shelf with one tiny little problem: It's empty because I somehow managed to lose the DVD shortly after the release of the game.

 

[anam]

CD's and DVDs also aren't made to last forever. There's also other physical problems: I have a nice DVD-Case of Rome: TW in my shelf with one tiny little problem: It's empty because I somehow managed to lose the DVD shortly after the release of the game.

I'm still trying to figure out where the webpage for my Diablo 3 is so i can download it again. This is why i like steam. I know where it is
Stupid publishers forcing me to use anything else.

PS: In other news, the sky might fall down. FB buying OR is just the beggining. The end is upon us. Chris Roberts is the second coming of christ. DOOOOM.

(I could probably D3 it if i really tried, but the points is i have a few games on different places around the net, and dam if i can remember each single page where i need to dl them, especially after some reinstals of windows etc)

 

[Seli]

I appreciate the reasoned reply. However, in-store retail is not the only way to sell outside of Steam. Physical disks can be distributed by sale on Amazon or any other e-commerce site. Similarly digital downloads can be offered through a variety of outlets. Even if you accept that Steam accounts for 75% of the digital download market, that suggests that being Steam exclusive is depriving a publisher of up to 25% of their potential sales. I fully understand that companies are out to maximize profit, not sales (at least if they are smart, some do just go for sales). I also take as fact that, as stated, 98% of CK2 was sold on Steam. What that tells me is that Paradox is not maximizing their distribution, not that they should go 100% Steam. Companies make the decisions that seem the best for them at that time. They are not always correct, sometimes they make the wrong choice.

One bit to note that 98% of steam copies does not mean that 98% of customers were buying from steam. A lot of other stores/portals, as well as most physical distribution options, were selling steam codes as well.