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Swarzshanaggen

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So after a lot of testing, I think I might have found the most OP fleet composition ever (without making specialized fleets for different fleet compositions).

What ships to use?
Research aside, I only use Corvettes and battleships. The basic strategy with this fleet is to have lots of Corvettes take all the fire while the battleships kill everything from afar. I don't use cruisers because they have an aggressive computer, so they charge in with the Corvettes and die, and that's a really expensive way to play. I don't use destroyers because, even though they have a defensive computer like battleships, they just don't have the firepower to compare with battleships, even when you factor in that one battleships equals for destroyers. Destroyers are fine to use before you research battleships though. When you use the ships, you'll find that you will very rarely have to replace battleships, maybe if you have to fight fleets from two directions.

How many Corvettes for each battleship?
I usually use a 1:3 ratio, so whenever I have a fleet with 20 battleships, I'll have 60 Corvettes (220 fleet capacity, usually around 20k power). You could use a 1:4 ratio, but I wouldn't go 1:2 because your battleships would start dying really early into the fight, and I wouldn't go 1:5 because that's just way more Corvettes than you need.

What weapons to use?
I always start it with kinetic weapons. Missiles are bad because they take too long to get to the targets, and are easily countered with point defense. I don't use lasers because they are good against shields, and not armor, and if you're playing against AIs, then they will always have both armor and shields. Kinetic weapons are fast, long ranged, and good against both armor and shields. With research, don't even bother with autocannons or Gauss cannons, you won't need them. You should just go straight for kinetic artillery, mega cannons, and giga cannons. You might realize that, while tachyon lances (which everyone loves for some reason) use X slots, like mega and giga cannons, kinetic batteries use L slots. In comparison, lasers and missiles have nothing like that at all, and kinetic artillery are just a little weaker than tachyon lances. So I'm your battleships, you should have a single giga cannon and all the rest kinetic artillery. On Corvettes though, since you can't have L slots and they're getting close to the enemy anyways, I use plasma throwers and disruptors. You could use some other close range weapon though, maybe autocannons?

Shields or armor?
For me, I always have to choose one, because it takes too much research to do both, but you can reverse engineer the one you don't use later. It's just a matter of opinion which one to use, but I would do armor, since lasers are weak against it. Missiles, on the other hand, take too long to get to your ships, and since kinetic artillery and giga cannons are so long range, they'll probably be dead by the time the missiles start hitting your ships (not late/middle game when you have fleets of 20k+ going around killing each other, and by that time you could reverse engineer level 5 shields easily).

Which ftl?
This really doesn't matter, just don't use hyperspace, since it just sucks (it was made to be limiting, but fast, but the warp cooldown time was buffed a lot so it's just limiting now). You can use warp or wormhole, it's just a matter of opinion. After a while, you can reverse engineer jump drive or psi jump drive once you kill your first fallen empire (also they have this awesome shield tech that gives you tons of shields in exchange for less hull points).

This strategy only has one real weakness, and that's if they somehow start shooting the battleships before the Corvettes. This can happen if someone warps on top of your fleet, you warp on a subspace snare that has a fleet waiting for you, or if someone attacks your side or from behind you. The strength of this fleet is a one on one long range battle. You have to remember to keep your distance, and attack them before they can even get to your Corvettes.

I have used this fleet type a lot, and I haven't seen any reason to use a different one, other than specialized fleets, which are very research heavy and require you to have lots of different fleets.
 

General Retreat

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Just a quick tip - swap out the giga cannons for tachyon lances, paired with kinetic artillery. There is a firing delay on the lance with syncs perfectly with the artillery, meaning enemy shields will usually be dropped just before a bout of being fried by tachyons.

Kinetics will automatically seek out shielded ships, while lasers will automatically seek out unshielded ships. Because the giga cannon is also kinetic you'll likely find its hull damage potential is being wasted on shielded targets.

Otherwise, your fleet composition is fine. Many people swear by cruiser swarms and repeated testing has generally indicated that massed plasma cruisers will generally beat anything (if only marginally at times). Really though, if you're playing against the AI, "optimal to the Nth degree" isn't really relevant.

Might as well go with the option that does the job and you find appealing.
 
Last edited:

AndragonLea

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Seconding above - also, you switched the two basic weapon types. Kinetics are good for dropping shields, lasers are good for taking out heavily armored targets. Choosing lasers is bad because at the start of the game, all you encounter are corvettes/destroyers and small fry aliens - none of which have HP/armor worth mentioning. Projectiles are the best starter because all the early ships benefit a lot of shields - which means the AI stacks them hard. By the time the more heavily armored stuff shows up, you usually had enough time to research an option for taking care of them.

Kinetic artillers and lances on the battleships, flak and auto cannons on the cruisers, skip destroyers and have a bunch of corvettes mixed 1/1 auto cannons/photon torpedos.

That way the cruisers and half of your corvettes will take out the small fries, the cruisers will blow any enemy missiles and bombers headed towards your battleships out of the sky using the flak, the auto cannons and photon torpedos will take out shields like a pro and your artillery and lances will focus fire individual enemy heavies and slice them apart by ignoring up to 90 % of that delicious armor.

Corvettes and destroyers (if you must use them :p) benefit mostly from going all in on the shields, as the math showed that no amount of armor stacking will benefit them much - they lack the hull hp pool to properly benefit of a percentage based damage reduction and they massively benefit from rapidly reloading shields. Try stacking their evasion - dodging hits goes great with the reloading shields, so prioritise the thrusters and combat computers over scanners.

Cruisers and battleships should go for a mixed approach - 1 to 3 shield modules, the shield capacitor A slot module and the rest filled up with armor once your energy requirements are met. Repeating tech will assure that you sooner or later hit the coveted maximum armor rating of 90 %, after which you can either keep researching it (so you hit 90 % with less armor modules, giving you more slots for shields) or go for shield regen/hp instead to make the existing modules more efficient. Your cruisers will mostly engage nimble corvettes and your battleships are your main damage dealers, so you should prioritise scanners and combat computers that focus on firepower over thrusters or combat computers that give defensive boni.

If all goes well, you will mostly lose corvettes, followed by cruisers and only then your battleships (which is good because you need only 20ish days to build a corvette with stacking modules, while a battleship takes a good year to replace and longer still ship to the front, not to mention that it takes more minerals up front to start a battleship but with 200 minerals you can start queueing replacement corvettes).
 

binn05

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Just a quick tip - swap out the giga cannons for tachyon lances, paired with kinetic artillery. There is a firing delay on the lance with syncs perfectly with the lances, meaning enemy shields will usually be dropped just before a bout of being fried by tachyons.

Kinetics will automatically seek out shielded ships, while lasers will automatically seek out unshielded ships. Because the giga cannon is also kinetic you'll likely find its hull damage potential is being wasted on shielded targets.

Otherwise, your fleet composition is fine. Many people swear by cruiser swarms and repeated testing has generally indicated that massed plasma cruisers will generally beat anything (if only marginally at times). Really though, if you're playing against the AI, "optimal to the Nth degree" isn't really relevant.

Might as well go with the option that does the job and you find appealing.


Seconding above - also, you switched the two basic weapon types. Kinetics are good for dropping shields, lasers are good for taking out heavily armored targets. Choosing lasers is bad because at the start of the game, all you encounter are corvettes/destroyers and small fry aliens - none of which have HP/armor worth mentioning. Projectiles are the best starter because all the early ships benefit a lot of shields - which means the AI stacks them hard. By the time the more heavily armored stuff shows up, you usually had enough time to research an option for taking care of them.

Kinetic artillers and lances on the battleships, flak and auto cannons on the cruisers, skip destroyers and have a bunch of corvettes mixed 1/1 auto cannons/photon torpedos.

That way the cruisers and half of your corvettes will take out the small fries, the cruisers will blow any enemy missiles and bombers headed towards your battleships out of the sky using the flak, the auto cannons and photon torpedos will take out shields like a pro and your artillery and lances will focus fire individual enemy heavies and slice them apart by ignoring up to 90 % of that delicious armor.

Corvettes and destroyers (if you must use them :p) benefit mostly from going all in on the shields, as the math showed that no amount of armor stacking will benefit them much - they lack the hull hp pool to properly benefit of a percentage based damage reduction and they massively benefit from rapidly reloading shields. Try stacking their evasion - dodging hits goes great with the reloading shields, so prioritise the thrusters and combat computers over scanners.

Cruisers and battleships should go for a mixed approach - 1 to 3 shield modules, the shield capacitor A slot module and the rest filled up with armor once your energy requirements are met. Repeating tech will assure that you sooner or later hit the coveted maximum armor rating of 90 %, after which you can either keep researching it (so you hit 90 % with less armor modules, giving you more slots for shields) or go for shield regen/hp instead to make the existing modules more efficient. Your cruisers will mostly engage nimble corvettes and your battleships are your main damage dealers, so you should prioritise scanners and combat computers that focus on firepower over thrusters or combat computers that give defensive boni.

If all goes well, you will mostly lose corvettes, followed by cruisers and only then your battleships (which is good because you need only 20ish days to build a corvette with stacking modules, while a battleship takes a good year to replace and longer still ship to the front, not to mention that it takes more minerals up front to start a battleship but with 200 minerals you can start queueing replacement corvettes).

Where do you guys find all those data?
I tried to get a better understanding of ship building/combat/fleet compositon, but I'm still at a loss.
Is there any guide to read about it?
 

Swarzshanaggen

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Where do you guys find all those data?
I tried to get a better understanding of ship building/combat/fleet compositon, but I'm still at a loss.
Is there any guide to read about it?

Mostly personal experience, a bit of reading the wiki.

It is possible that tachyon lances could be better to use than giga cannons because of which ships they target, but giga cannons do more damage overall and they have around the same range as lances, so I guess it's personal opinion on which to use (maybe both?). Also you have to factor in that after getting kinetic artillery, it's a lot easier to research giga cannons than going through the entire laser tech tree (reverse engineering is feasible though).
 

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Reading, experimenting, talking with other players, fighting them, getting my butt handed to me a time or two.

Generally though, it's good old buddy calculator, helping you determine if a weapon is actually better or if the amazing sounding modifier just means it will look spectacular when it fails you.
 

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It is possible that tachyon lances could be better to use than giga cannons because of which ships they target, but giga cannons do more damage overall and they have around the same range as lances, so I guess it's personal opinion on which to use (maybe both?).

Repeated testing has shown that tachyon lances are superior to giga cannons. The exception to this is against the unbidden.

The basic strategy with this fleet is to have lots of Corvettes take all the fire while the battleships kill everything from afar.

You have to be careful here. I've tested krios41's fleet against my battleship or cruiser stack. The battleships and cruisers focus down the big ships first and work their way down, so the corvettes end up not screening at all.

I don't use cruisers because they have an aggressive computer, so they charge in with the Corvettes and die, and that's a really expensive way to play.

Except that cruisers are the meta-ship type, as 2 of them cost around the same as battleship, and the 2 will have more HP than a singular battleship. It's basically EHP stacking with good mineral efficiency.

Additionally, this fleet type doesn't scale well into late game, as all the corvettes will just cause a bunch of lag. You will feel like you're having a stroke watching the battle.

It's just a matter of opinion which one to use, but I would do armor, since lasers are weak against it.

It really isn't a matter of opinion, shields are more efficient on destroyers and corvettes than armour is. Also, lasers aren't weak against armour... they're strong against armour, you're thinking of kinetics.
The only remaining question is whether it's worth it to use armour on small ships against other small ships that are using kinetic weapons.

So I'm your battleships, you should have a single giga cannon and all the rest kinetic artillery.

Dude, there's a lot of stuff about battleship builds around, and this is just going backwards. The only reasons to ever use all kinetic on battleships are two situations: against the unbidden, and if you're using a mixed fleet of battleships and cruisers, with the cruisers using a mix between kinetic artillery and plasma.
 

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Where do you guys find all those data?
I tried to get a better understanding of ship building/combat/fleet compositon, but I'm still at a loss.
Is there any guide to read about it?

You do testing yourself, using auto_build to make the fleet types you want to test. Saving the game before battle to be able to repeat the experiment at least 5 times and get the results. Using attackallfleets if you want to test two fleets against each other that you've built.
 

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Carrier ships: The only worth I've found in carrier ships was when I tied my cruisers up with a hangar carrying fighters to counter enemy missiles. The fighters fly ahead so they have more time to take out missiles. Coupled with a few dedicated PD destroyers, the design worked decently well.

Just not well enough to outperform flak cruisers, because flaks are ALSO quite decent at taking out corvettes. So your flak could pull dubble duty: shoot missiles and fighters/bombers when they are in range and shoot corvettes when they are not. All of this on a hull that is designed to tank anyways, which carries it into the thick of the small ships and right up to the platforms launching possible missiles and strike craft. As there is no enemy I've enountered so far that uses neither small ships nor missiles/strike craft, the design is versatile, effective and intuitive.

Carriers only make sense in a saturation setting: massed torps, missiles and strike craft to overwhelm enemy PD. But since all three of those weapon types are currently absolutely horrible (missiles due to overkill, flight time, vulnerability to PD and the fact that they disappear when their mothership gets killed, strike craft because they don't regenerate in combat), building around them is currently madness.

I eagerly await the day when missiles and strike craft become viable.
 

binn05

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It's basically EHP stacking with good mineral efficiency.

What is EHP? Effective HP?


Carrier ships: The only worth I've found in carrier ships was when I tied my cruisers up with a hangar carrying fighters to counter enemy missiles. The fighters fly ahead so they have more time to take out missiles. Coupled with a few dedicated PD destroyers, the design worked decently well.

Just not well enough to outperform flak cruisers, because flaks are ALSO quite decent at taking out corvettes. So your flak could pull dubble duty: shoot missiles and fighters/bombers when they are in range and shoot corvettes when they are not. All of this on a hull that is designed to tank anyways, which carries it into the thick of the small ships and right up to the platforms launching possible missiles and strike craft. As there is no enemy I've enountered so far that uses neither small ships nor missiles/strike craft, the design is versatile, effective and intuitive.

Carriers only make sense in a saturation setting: massed torps, missiles and strike craft to overwhelm enemy PD. But since all three of those weapon types are currently absolutely horrible (missiles due to overkill, flight time, vulnerability to PD and the fact that they disappear when their mothership gets killed, strike craft because they don't regenerate in combat), building around them is currently madness.

I eagerly await the day when missiles and strike craft become viable.

Thanks for the information.

I'd like a forum section for discussing ship/fleet desing.
It would make getting information easier.