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In the grimdarkness of the far future there is only Bloodlines 2
 
Cara Ellison is clearly not longer at Hardsuit Labs because she gets many job offers.

Also keep in mind that after her Twitter break (26. Mai to 11. October) she hasn´t mention her previous job at Hardsuit Labs at all.
So yeah i still believe that she was fired and also signed a NDA which doesn´t allow her to talk about anything regarding Bloodlines 2, Hardsuit Labs and Paradox.

So, I'm employed yet I get many job offers all the time. It's the nature of the business. Different companies want to "poach" talent. So getting job offers doesn't mean much. Furthermore, as a narrative writer, she is more of a freelancer that goes from game to game. She isn't your typical developer that works at the same game studio for years (and that is also changing for them too). So getting job offers in her type of work and role is not uncommon whatsoever.

Also, just because she removed the title and there was no formal statement, also means absolutely nothing. Yes, the chances that she is still working with Paradox is low if she removed the title. But game companies are not going to announce every single departure of the team, nor will team members announce it. Too often, a team member just moves to another project without saying anything. The reason for this is because there often not many people closely following them enough to actually *care*. She was the lead narrative writer, but that is still not remotely the same type of role as Mitsoda was in. She isn't in the type of position that warrants a statement. Now I do agree she signed a NDA, but that happens when you get hired. Unless it's in an official capacity, you cannot comment on the work being done. So her not commenting on the game/Paradox/HL may only be because she did leave or her work was finished. Not necessarily because she was fired.

Again, I believe we are grasping at straws. I'm not saying she wasn't fired, but I do believe there is some responsibility in not just throwing conjectures up without any real evidence. I'm also not trying to deter negative news. Obviously the game and its development isn't all rosy, but I do believe people are taking the firings and the delay a bit extreme. I've been very consistent on this opinion. Maybe it's my age or my experience in the industry that I have this opinion. The firings of Cluney and Mitsoda are red flags, but nothing more. There is no reason to think it's a sinking ship or that they should "stop firing their employees" as you put it. You make it seem as though they are continuing to fire employees, when in fact they are hiring. A sinking ship would mean they are firing employees as the budget has bloat. That's not the case here. They are actually hiring more than they are firing based on evidence we have.
 
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First-off: I don't even think it matters. Ellison wasn't a draw as far as I can tell -wasn't for me anyways- and imo her leaving would be a mere addendum to the "organizational changes" rather than a new significant event in and of itself.

But. Her deleting her title and replacing it with two (talent/literary) agencies, moving back to her home country in the middle of a pandemic (meaning it's probably not just a vacation) and all this coinciding with her getting a lot of job offers ... until we get a papal bull, sure we can call it conjecture. Let's just say if bookies took bets on it, the odds would be pretty short tho.
 
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However, I really disagree that we "deserve" anything. HL owes us nothing.
Oh really?!? But they still want our money so maybe we deseve some answers about stuff which was promised and if prominent marketing faces
are gone or not.

I do not believe their departure (whether it was being fired or not) will have too much of an impact on the released game.
Neither do i. The basic game without DLCs is almost finished from the writing part but it still bad that both Mitsoda and Ellison
can´t refine it to the last minute of development.

However, it may have an impact on the DLCs, besides the initial story boards and other ideas they may have already created. Remember, that the DLCs are already planned. They know what they will be.
Who knows if they are still making all this promised content. They are planned but plans can change.

But the most important thing to take away: we are not owed or deserve anything. If you feel that way and it makes you cancel your preorder than fine. That's your decision. But no game company should feel as though they owe an explanation to every single occurrence that happens with staff. Turnover happens.
Come on we are talking about only the public faces who were used heavly for Marketing. Nobody cares about Dev Joe who works in the shadow.
And Ellison was after Mitsoda and before Cluney the second most known person.
So if Ellison wasn´t used that heavly for the marketing we likely haven´t known her so of course no statement is needed.

Also with your glassdoor reviews and your responses previously, I'm really curious if you're still a student.
Not i am not. I am a proud european / german (not so much german of course because germans aren´t allowed to be proud expect
important national Football games if you won´t be label as "Nazi") mittle class worker who is happy that he can´t fired that easy because of worker protection laws.

By the way the two german Bloodlines 2 producers Florian Schwarzer and Christian Schlütter weren´t fired but only removed from this project.
Why? Because of european worker protection laws.

One last thing I will say is that this may be more of a difference between American and European cultures as well. I'm very well aware of the difference in work culture between the two regions. As HL is American, as well as I am, these practices are very familiar to me. It may not be so much for our European community.
I won´t sound arrogant but i am glad that we have in Europe not this extreme Hire and Fire mentality and more protection like you guys in USA.
 
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While nobody is 'owed' anything, of course, this is kinda of hsl/pdox's own making.

If they didn't want attention on staff issues, don't throw devs in podcasts/streams/shows or release multiple dev diaries about them (and their cats).
Post dev updates from a company account. Signed 'hsl inc'.

Anywho, I gotta agree with Eber that multi-year projects always see turnover. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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Anywho, I gotta agree with Eber that multi-year projects always see turnover. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Of course if you became a parent or looking for other job because severall reasons that this isn´t bad because
people change over the years.
But we are talking about people who are getting fired. Those have very often negative effects on the remaining team especially if those
are leading and more public known staff.
 
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I don't expect anything more or less than the state that Bloodlines was in at its release.
 
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Oh really?!? But they still want our money so maybe he deseve some answers about stuff which was promised and if prominent marketing faces
are gone or not.


Neither do i. The basic game without DLCs is almost finished from the writing part but it still bad that both Mitsoda and Ellison
can´t refine it to the last minute of development.

I really put this more to a reason why pre-orders are a double-edged sword for companies. It is great since they automatically get money before the game is completed, which can help smaller companies stay in business. It also helps gauge the interest in the game in case more money is needed by investors and such. However, it is also bad because people who pre-order then think they are entitled to something more than receiving the game after it is completed. It is a trade. You spend money for a product that you will ultimately receive, whether you wait to buy it after it's completed or before. You do not own shares in the company or have any investment in the company whatsoever. Because of that, they owe you nothing but a completed game ("completed" not necessarily meaning a bug-free, great game).

I will agree that not having Mitsoda there to refine anything last minute, especially for the DLCs, is not ideal. It sucks but it is what it is. As for Ellison, I have a lot of respect for her but I don't think many people even truly knew she was working on the game, at least compared to Mitsoda. Her departure won't be as missed. That is no disrespect to her, just more of a high praise to Mitsoda.

Who knows if they are still making all this promised content. They are planned but plans can change.


Come on we are talking about only the public faces who were used heavly for Marketing. Nobody cares about Dev Joe who works in the shadow.
And Ellison was after Mitsoda and before Cluney the second most known person.
So if Ellison wasn´t used that heavly for the marketing we likely haven´t known her so of course no statement is needed.


Not i am not. I am a proud european / german (not so much german of course because germans aren´t allowed to be proud expect
important national Football games if you won´t be label as "Nazi") mittle class worker who is happy that he can´t fired that easy because of worker protection laws.

By the way the two german Bloodlines 2 producers Florian Schwarzer and Christian Schlütter weren´t fired but only removed from this project.
Why? Because of european worker protection laws.


I won´t sound arrogant but i am glad that we have in Europe not this extreme Hire and Fire mentality and more protection like you guys in USA.

Plans can change, but if they change any future DLCs, it is probably due to other reasons than narrative departures.

So again, I agree that Ellison was used in interviews. However, that makes sense since she was the narrative lead. Since HL doesn't want to show too much gameplay, they want to focus on the narrative. Ellison as a Lead would have that as part of her job description. However, I disagree with you comparing Ellison as a marketing face. Mitsoda was used as a marketing face because of his work with BL1. It was his name that led credibility to the project. Ellison did do interviews but it's not remotely the same. She was just marketing the game to upsell the great story. It is not like HL was using her name and experience as a reason to get the game, like they did with Mitsoda. Two very different things. There are plenty of developers that are used in interviews for games.

I'm glad you have great worker protection laws in Germany/Europe. So it makes sense why this seems so surreal and uncomfortable to you. In the United States, we have some protection laws, but it is more due to discrimination. If it is not discriminatory and is based on direction of the company and/or your work product, you can easily be terminated. It is just how it is here unfortunately. In certain industries, there really is absolutely no stability. Furthermore, you may receive vacation time, but often you can't use it (or much of it) because of deliverables needing to get out or the fear if you take too much time off work, you may get replaced. My point in all of this is that this may seem foreign and ridiculous to anyone outside the United States, but the reviews I read are very typical.
 
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However, it is also bad because people who pre-order then think they are entitled to something more than receiving the game after it is completed. It is a trade. You spend money for a product that you will ultimately receive, whether you wait to buy it after it's completed or before. You do not own shares in the company or have any investment in the company whatsoever. Because of that, they owe you nothing but a completed game ("completed" not necessarily meaning a bug-free, great game).

That's a bit of an oversimplification imo. Consumer expectation (shaped by common industry business practices and brand reputation) and contractual obligations are two different things. And again,

this is kinda of hsl/pdox's own making.

They coulda just announced the game as 'when it's ready' and left it at that. They opted not to.
 
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That's a bit of an oversimplification imo. Consumer expectation (shaped by common industry business practices and brand reputation) and contractual obligations are two different things. And again,



They coulda just announced the game as 'when it's ready' and left it at that. They opted not to.

It was absolutely an oversimplification. I could have gone in more detail on industry practices when it comes to development updates, but industry practices do not have a bearing on contractual obligations via payment for game, as you stated. I didn't believe it was necessary as it's a separate discussion.

They could have, but not many developers only do that. Nearly every company has some type of development update, at least when it comes to AA or AAA games. The difference is the frequency and the type of updates. In one of my posts, however; I did state that the vast majority of updates, especially ones that go into high detail, are usually never released until 1-2 months before release. Updates outside of that time frame are much less frequent and completely up to the developer, as they do it solely to raise awareness and potentially get excitement/more preorders. But I don't think that it is one or the other, like you are suggesting. They have every right to go dormant and not give updates until its on their terms. That's the point.
 
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However, it is also bad because people who pre-order then think they are entitled to something more than receiving the game after it is completed. It is a trade. You spend money for a product that you will ultimately receive, whether you wait to buy it after it's completed or before. You do not own shares in the company or have any investment in the company whatsoever. Because of that, they owe you nothing but a completed game ("completed" not necessarily meaning a bug-free, great game).
And again companies still want our money for their games. So we deserve atleast some information regarding the product.
Maybe you can sell in America whatever you like but in Europe we have strong costumer protection laws there you can´t do that.
Also i know this motto isn´t that was it used to be but the "Costumer is king" atleast for smaller companies. Of course gigants likeAmazon for example won´t care.

As for Ellison, I have a lot of respect for her but I don't think many people even truly knew she was working on the game, at least compared to Mitsoda. Her departure won't be as missed. That is no disrespect to her, just more of a high praise to Mitsoda.
Sorry but almost nobody know about Mitsoda before Bloodlines 2 marketing. He was known by some fans who are well informed
but Paradox really make him to a public marketing figure.
Ellison was the same thing to a lesser degree because she hadn´t wrote Bloodlines 1 but had her writing hand in Dishonored 2.

Plans can change, but if they change any future DLCs, it is probably due to other reasons than narrative departures.
We all know that the DLCs will only exist when the Bloodlines 2 sales are ok enough for Paradox to justify them.

However, I disagree with you comparing Ellison as a marketing face. Mitsoda was used as a marketing face because of his work with BL1. It was his name that led credibility to the project. Ellison did do interviews but it's not remotely the same. She was just marketing the game to upsell the great story. It is not like HL was using her name and experience as a reason to get the game, like they did with Mitsoda. Two very different things. There are plenty of developers that are used in interviews for games.
I would argue that they used Ellison more for marketing because unlike Mitsoda she is good at PR stuff like Interviews.
Mitsoda on the other hand doesn´t like this because of his social anxiety.
In many interviews you see Ellison alongside Mitsoda who helps him this stuff.
 
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Oh really?!? But they still want our money so maybe he deseve some answers about stuff which was promised and if prominent marketing faces
are gone or not.

Deserve is the wrong word, but i'm sure that they will reveal more when the development is back on track and they actually have something new to show. They probably dont want another round of building up hype for a release that will be postponed yet again.
 
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It was absolutely an oversimplification. I could have gone in more detail on industry practices when it comes to development updates, but industry practices do not have a bearing on contractual obligations via payment for game, as you stated. I didn't believe it was necessary as it's a separate discussion.

They could have, but not many developers only do that. Nearly every company has some type of development update, at least when it comes to AA or AAA games. The difference is the frequency and the type of updates. In one of my posts, however; I did state that the vast majority of updates, especially ones that go into high detail, are usually never released until 1-2 months before release. Updates outside of that time frame are much less frequent and completely up to the developer, as they do it solely to raise awareness and potentially get excitement/more preorders. But I don't think that it is one or the other, like you are suggesting. They have every right to go dormant and not give updates until its on their terms. That's the point.

I don't think it is separate because to my mind there is only one discussion taking place. When people speak of 'deserve', 'owe' and such in the current context - they're not doing so while dialing their lawyer's number. So I think the contractual angle is entirely besides the point. That's the part that goes without saying rather than the consumer expectation one.

And of course the devs have the 'right' to do as they please. But they themselves raised consumer expectations with the pre-orders, the dlcs, the pdox-typical dev diaries etc etc. To complain about their customer base becoming antsy after all that falls apart is a bit much imo. *shrug*

Anywho. Back to CK3.
 
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Biggest problem over here is that they raised hype at the beginning and then just stopped. Lack of communication and marketing overall lead to frustration, frustration then led to speculations, speculations lead to conspiracy theories....Aaaand now the fan base is as it is :confused:
 
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Deserve is the wrong word.
Is it? Well i believe that we as costumers have also rights. Of course Hardsut Labs / Paradox can whatever they like do with this game
because make and therefore own the game.
But still they want our money even before the game is even finished. So yeah we deserve some informations
that Bloodlines 2 is still a good investment for our hard earned money. We costumers want to be convinced and therefore
they should offical confirm that Cara Ellison is not longer at Hardsuit Labs but this is for some reason (which i don´t share) a good thing.
 
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Biggest problem over here is that they raised hype at the beginning and then just stopped. Lack of communication and marketing overall lead to frustration, frustration then led to speculations, speculations lead to conspiracy theories....Aaaand now the fan bas is as it is :confused:
To be fair the average gamer who doesn´t care about this stuff and just view the game as what it is.
The sequel to the cult classic Bloodlines 1. I honestly believe that Bloodlines 2 will be a success (not a big one for companies like EA, Take 2 or Ubisoft)
and this will likely not because of the quality (i still hope that this will be case but right now i doubt that) but its Bloodlines 2.
The good name of Bloodlines 1 will sale this game.
 
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Is it? Well i believe that we as costumers have also rights.
Customer rights is defined by the law. You have the right to cancel or order the game as you please.

But still they want our money even before the game is even finished. So yeah we deserve some informations
that Bloodlines 2 is still a good investment for our hard earned money.
You will get that from the marketing department long before the game is ready for launch because marketing sells games.
 
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However, it is also bad because people who pre-order then think they are entitled to something more than receiving the game after it is completed. It is a trade. You spend money for a product that you will ultimately receive, whether you wait to buy it after it's completed or before.
That is pure capitalism ... not complaining, i like that phylosophy, kinda ...
But there is second aspect, i would call it decency ...
(and now i mean ... wich is kinda funny ... Paradox, not you, since as i presume you just represent your own opinion having no idea if anyone in Paradox even agree with you ... right?)

Its one thing if copmany sate soemthing like: "you buyed this product, with that you showed you thrust us, and we like to show you that thrust was not missplaced ... so we wish to present you *XY*"

And then there is second attitude ... not as decent, but certainly possible: "you buyed this game ... you will get it when we say, where we say, unless we decide to say otherwise ... now shut up and do not obscure"

And ofc. there is third attitude, where company just dont say anything ...
And that is up to potential players to decide wich version seem to be more probable.
I gues you know wich is it in this case. ;)

If you ask me, right way lays in middle ... company is not enslaved to gamers demands ... gamers are not threated like worthless trash. :-/
So yes ... yay to capitalism ... with some common decency. ;)
 
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Seemingly you lack job experience and knowledge of laws (though these differ from country to country).
As an employee you're, to my knowledge, literally bound to protect your employer from harm and not participate in harming them. Meaning your employer might hold an actual valid reason to fire you without any lay-off benefit, for you engaging in "badmouthing" them - and possibly even compensation for harm caused. But besides the possible legal ramifications there, it's an act of professionalism not to talk badly about your products, nor your employer.
But sure, in practice you'll find people in sales who'll tell you there might be better products out there - which partially can be a marketing pratice and partially sheer unprofessionalism...
Then again you're acting as if Outstar wasn't employed in Marketing/PR - she's. Her whole job contains building a positive community, which excludes talking too badly about things and includes talking more positively about things. So she's in that not really different from nuclear power station spokespersons "What leak? --- Oh that leak.".

So let's play Uno Reverse - how low do you think of Outstar thinking that she's being that unprofessional, taking money for not doing her job?

People back then didn't ridicule them. They voiced concerns about the game not being ready in the mentionend timeframes. And, what a wonder, they were right. It's still not ready. And if not for idiots trying to denounce everyone seeing a problem as idiots - as it was 'clearly labeled as alpha footage', it wouldn't have gotten half as bad as it did.
Your knowledge is lacking then. There's no jurisdiction on earth that legislates employers being criminally loyal to their employers outside of government. In any case, "not harming" your employer doesn't mean actively lying for them, which is the silly claim going on here.

The idea that was being put forward is that Outstar lied about playing the game for 35 hours on her YouTube channel where most videos have like 3K views and the really big ones rarely exceed 25K views. And of course this lie was made well in advance to make a handful of people on this forum look foolish because she was able to predict that they would start wishing for the game to be cancelled out of some kind of silly spite against Paradox????

As far as conspiracy theories go, this one is particularly weak and lame. Once again you're talking about her not being allowed to say bad things about Paradox but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about her playing the game for dozens of hours, people not wanting to hear that because they want the game to be cancelled, and then this ridiculous conspiracy theory emerging about how she must have made it up.

The game isn't cancelled. All of the spiteful wishing in the world against Paradox will not cancel it. Anyone who is no longer interested in the game should just move on.
 
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