is there ANY way to beat mongols as Rus\Russia?

[unmerged(312767)]

Before, they were beatable by assassinating their ruler, so invasion stops, or by annihilating their armies, obviously. But with recent DLC and patches, the game took all advantages we had.
- We can't reinforce levies. So once they beat your army you can't replace lost troops.
- With retinue techs you get less levies, so your only advantage - numbers are removed.
By experience, you need approx 80-90k troops to beat a stack of 40k. Before, mongols splitted their doomstacks so you had a chance to beat 20k stacks one by one, now, their main goal is to unite in several 80k+ troops stacks and you need ~160k troops.
They suffer no attrition and with stack of 100k you suffer 15-20% of losses every month. Splitting troops is pointless as even 20 or 40k stack kills 20k stack within 3 or 5 days so you have to keep all your troops in one doomstack...that suffers more attrition as you add new troops.
So maybe we should add scripted event that will autovassalize or destroy every country east of Poland?

 

[Mutineer]

Actually some of your statments are incorrect.
For example, with new system there are about 2 time more levies avalible from same land. (In old system max crown autority did give you 40% min levy, with new it is 80%.
So, from new system you have more levies.

Second, your levies DO reinforced, and rather fast when disbanded. So, you can raise levies multiply times in same war. may be not in first war, mongold will prolly win befor you can use that. But by making your armies hostile to mongols in times between mongols envasions you can wear and tear there stack.

Thurd, there even stack, one which does not suffer from atrition does not reinforce.

So, yes, it is a challenge, but it is possible to eventially wear that stack down.

 

[anonymouswolfm]

Before, they were beatable by assassinating their ruler, so invasion stops, or by annihilating their armies, obviously. But with recent DLC and patches, the game took all advantages we had.
- We can't reinforce levies. So once they beat your army you can't replace lost troops.
- With retinue techs you get less levies, so your only advantage - numbers are removed.
By experience, you need approx 80-90k troops to beat a stack of 40k. Before, mongols splitted their doomstacks so you had a chance to beat 20k stacks one by one, now, their main goal is to unite in several 80k+ troops stacks and you need ~160k troops.
They suffer no attrition and with stack of 100k you suffer 15-20% of losses every month. Splitting troops is pointless as even 20 or 40k stack kills 20k stack within 3 or 5 days so you have to keep all your troops in one doomstack...that suffers more attrition as you add new troops.
So maybe we should add scripted event that will autovassalize or destroy every country east of Poland?

Side with the Mongols. Swear fealty to them. Rebel after the doomstacks are gone. Basically much in line with what happened historically.

 

[The_Blind_One]

The big problem with the mongols is that historicaly, they had no intention of replacing the aristocracy. Their goal was to unite all the steppe nomad peoples and extract tribute from the weak inferior settled peoples. They didn't have enough people or knowledge to administer the bureaucracy of all the conquered lands. Instead they relied on simple nominal overlordship and a nice extraction of regular tribute.

In the game, they swipe your lands and titles and replace everything with a swath of mongol counts and dukes, which is completely inhistorical.

The fact that the mongols beat the russians is no suprise. The russians could at best field 30k and even if united perhaps 60k. Compared to the mongol armies who could reach 100k. The russians were doomned from the start. It's only luck which saved the rest of europe the same fate.

 

[unmerged(312767)]

So what's the point of making them playable if you are pre-set to be defeated?

Also, regarding levies, that is untrue. I made Russia pre and after patch with mostly same territores, techs and laws. Pre-patch with absolute authority you I managed to field my max of 145k troops, after patch my max was 89k +10k retinues(28 diplomacy leader with no vassals of negative opinion) was not depleted by previous wars. So you get less levies.

 

[The_Blind_One]

So what's the point of making them playable if you are pre-set to be defeated?

Also, regarding levies, that is untrue. I made Russia pre and after patch with mostly same territores, techs and laws. Pre-patch with absolute authority you I managed to field my max of 145k troops, after patch my max was 89k +10k retinues(28 diplomacy leader with no vassals of negative opinion) was not depleted by previous wars. So you get less levies.

I meant historicaly...

in the game you can churn out modern field armies -_-

 

[unmerged(312767)]

Ironically, it is mongols who field "modern" armies as noone can field horse archers - most advanced unit type n the game.

 

[Jia Xu]

So what's the point of making them playable if you are pre-set to be defeated?

You could say that about a lot of countries in a lot of PI games. Is playing Hawaii in Victoria 2 a lost cause? Yeah, probably. You can play it anyway though!

Beating the Mongols with Russia alone sounds impractical. You have like 200 years before the Golden Horde shows up, right? Use that time to build an empire. You need to expand into places which are rich and can be relied on to provide plentiful levies. I doubt that any lone kingdom in the game can defeat one of the Mongol hordes on arrival. Whenever possible, break into Anatolia and Greece. If you can conquer Byzantium, you should be more capable of defeating the Golden Horde when they land. I managed to do it!

If you think fighting them with Russia alone is hard, try fighting them with just Persia!

 

[Talq]

Ironically, it is mongols who field "modern" armies as noone can field horse archers - most advanced unit type n the game.

Byzantines can.

 

[nyah]

Side with the Mongols. Swear fealty to them. Rebel after the doomstacks are gone. Basically much in line with what happened historically.

Seems obvious really doesn't it, especially now they don't revoke for being wrong religion.

 

[Comradebot]

Its time and wear n' tear that tends to end the Mongols. Outright beating them at the get-go with Rus should be a massive challenge (unless you're super gamey and just leave your armies in Perm, waiting to pounce before they can organize).

If you're a big enough blob, then call in the nastiest allies you can for a holy war, and focus primarily on smacking down as many of their troops as you can. I did this against the Ilkhanate, and they started to become a little more manageable as their giant stack o' doom shrunk and eventually was destroyed after a few wars. But if that's not an option... then yeah, take the historical route, bend the knee, and be ready to make your move when they start to crumble (which they almost always do, especially if you can help with said crumbling).

 

[grumphie]

expect to lose a kingdom or two. your main goal in the first wars will be to hit their doomstacks as hard as you possibly can. declare war on them as well when youre ready as well, every man lost means a easier time for you. while their doomstack will slowly shrink, the amount of HA vs normal troops becomes lower and lower, in the end resulting in a much weaker stack thats actually managable, at which point you completly obliterate it and take back lost lands.

 

[Zireael]

Wear'n'tear doesn't help with the super doomstack.

 

[grumphie]

it DOES. sure, dont expect to inflict 10k casualties if youre outnumbered. expect to lose your eastern kingdoms. expand into the west. get allainces. damage the doomstacks as much as you can. the mongols always, inevtably, run out of steam with their uber doomstacks and will proceed to attack with normal levies. once their doomstack is small enough theyll just be your average blob to face, at which point youre goign to press your claims and holy war regions back under your control.

 

[unmerged(462833)]

Side with the Mongols. Swear fealty to them. Rebel after the doomstacks are gone. Basically much in line with what happened historically.

Not far ago I had Mongol invasion. First thing, You can't swear fealty if You are a king. Also, after You loose You still stay independent (if You still got lands outside their target off course). If You've got all Your personal holdings in their targetted Kingdom Your king titles and even Duchy one would disband and You will became their vassal - You will also see taht You are under Absolute Crown Law, and Your other vassal not under targetted Kingdom would get independence...

 

[unmerged(312767)]

Once two mongol 40k stack unite, they never stop or split, plus, autowin every siege even in most fortified provinces with 500 losses at most. To be thinned, they must participate in hundeds of sieges with full garrisons.

 

[Romaious330]

Why should you expect to lose territory to the Mongols? They should be able to be beaten as soon as they appear.

 

[Ryasyr]

you can Win. Ive made it a regular sport in my Russian Campagns to see how slowly I can from Rus and Later Russia before The Mongols come.

 

[Mutineer]

I started game as Kostroma, to see how big I would be befor facing mongols. Well, I was a god-emperor of east. When warning of khan of khan come a was bisy instaling my brother as emperor of HRE. Which I did and it give HRE a county in Khiva. Mosngold was able to win war for Khiva befor my leavis and mercs arrive, but affrer beating on sejik they declare on HRE. I used all this time to pisition 200K levies + mercs on new border. I offer to join war agains mongols to HRE, they offcouse agree. As result from 2 60K initial stack I kill about 50K why loosing 180K levies. On a brigth side, HRE WON war because I occupy big portion of mongols land and free there sinle county. Mongols surrender at +80 score in Hre favor.

So, if you are GOD -Emperor of east, you can beat mongols pretty fast.

 

[grumphie]

Why should you expect to lose territory to the Mongols? They should be able to be beaten as soon as they appear.

sure. it is possible to win. but still expect to lose some territry. they arent some kind of lstorng enemy like HRE that should be properly balanced. they are the historic menace that obliterated the eastern regions. while its perfectly possible to beat them the first time, theyre ridiculously strong and SHOUDL me near impossible to defeat,