Is there any hope for 1.20 China Patch?

[Zerodv]

In 1600 they were suffering from the aftershocks of the Imjin War, which decimated the country.

Oh yes, so yeah probably less than 10 million. I would say 2/3 of Japanese population is a not too far from the truth.

 

[wingzero890]

Ming already starts out as the only nation in the world with a development in the four digits. I'm not opposed to China getting more provinces, but bloating them to an even more ridiculous level than they already are - especially without any inhibiting mechanics - would completely destroy gamebalance.



Actually I can; Population =/= Development. Development is a combination of population, local education, quality of the terrain, and most importantly, quality of life.

Japan was backwater before and after the Sengoku - between a stifling caste system, overcrowding, the fact that most of the nation is un-arable mountain, and that they even officially banned the wheel for anything other than religious purposes, it is rightfully backwater compared to England, which has much better terrain, education, more social mobility, agricultural technology, and a strong reliance on mechanical power.

Granted, all of East Asia needs a development buff.

Ming being one united tag is a huge part of why Asia is such a problematic region right now. They need to be broken up into multiple tags united under an emperor for gameplay's sake. Then when you buff up Chinese development it wouldn't destroy game balance. Germany/the HRE having 1000+ development is not gamebreaking for precisely that reason. If you're going to argue 'history and realism' as a reason to keep China as one tag I will argue that it's bad for gameplay, and as Wiz said:

Just popped in to remind you guys that realism still isn't a meaningful argument.

And regarding Japan, I guess we're just going to ignore the fact that Japan produced enough firearms to field a massive force of gunners (disputed exactly how many) during the Sengoku era and the Imjin wars? So if development isn't population, and it's not production, then what exactly is it representing- those abstract concepts you defined? All of that stuff you just mentioned was literally made up by you and has nothing to do with EU4, at all. Development represents tax, production, and manpower, period. Social mobility, literacy, education and technology are represented with institutions, estates, and ... technology. And that's if one is being generous.

 

[Zerodv]

It wouldn´t be historical to have China like in Vicky 2, it just doesn´t represent the situation. Also from a gameplay perspective I would try to find other solution, like buffing the hordes north of them, increase coring cost and have Dutch revolt style event for every neighbouring region China takes. Add piracy raids as events or as a mechanic for maybe South Japanese countries.

 

[Kryndude]

I'm curious though, why no dev response?

 

[Koramei]

To all of the silent disagrees: please explain how in any sane world China should have the same amount (or even less) development as united Germany. Please explain how Japan should have less development than 1444 England.

The devs have posted about this a bit before- development in the game in 1444 doesn't just represent the 1444 levels, it's an average throughout the whole period, since there's no mechanic to dynamically develop stuff the way it would happen historically. England was a total backwater from the period after it lost its French possessions- just like 2 million people or so. But over the course of the game its population grew astronomically, so the development at the start represents that a bit.

Personally I wish it didn't work that way, and that we could have events like the importation of new world crops that allow for population and development explosions. But it does, so, the development level makes a bit of sense.

Still yeah, Japan could do with a bit of a development buff, even accounting for that. I dunno if it needs doubling but it should definitely be increased. And China goes without saying, as long as we get some (good) mechanics to hamstring them which I think should also be a given.

Korea seems way to high, the only thing I´ve found on internet is this:

All the numbers you're gonna get for Korea are gonna be controversial, a lot of them were given out by Japanese historians during the colonial period trying very actively to undermine Korea's legitimacy. And then since then you've had Korean historians being horrendously nationalist and almost as biased in the other direction.

That said, it's pretty uncontroversial that Korea wasn't anywhere close to as far behind Japan (whatever "behind" means here) before the Imjin War as it would be afterwards. Culturally and for population, the invasions ravaged the country in a way it would never recover from. So again, if we're looking at just 1444 figures, I think Korea could stand to be enormously stronger, but if there's not gonna be an Imjin War event that devastates the peninsula? (could be a pretty cool chain with the new devastation mechanics, incidentally) Well I still think it should be more developed, especially if its neighbors get a buff too- but maybe not hugely.

Ming already starts out as the only nation in the world with a development in the four digits. I'm not opposed to China getting more provinces, but bloating them to an even more ridiculous level than they already are - especially without any inhibiting mechanics - would completely destroy gamebalance.

I'm really hoping this will be a given in the Asia patch. Even with Ming as they are now, they're too expansionist really. Loads of people (including me ) have given some great ideas for how to potentially stop the Chinese mega-blob; if nothing gets added I'm gonna be sorely disappointed.

So with that as a given, yeah I think China should be a lot more developed. People have calculated population figures and it puts it at something stupid like 8 or 10 times the development it is now- I definitely don't think it needs that, but maybe between doubled or tripled? Again there's the issue of development representing growth over the whole game (although that hit China hard too- the arrival of the potato for instance was huge in China, it meant formerly un-arable hillside land could suddenly be farmed too) and definitely by 1821 China looked like something of a backwater compared to Europe, but in 1444 that was definitely not the case.

 

[Grand Historian]

Ming being one united tag is a huge part of why Asia is such a problematic region right now. They need to be broken up into multiple tags united under an emperor for gameplay's sake. Then when you buff up Chinese development it wouldn't destroy game balance. Germany/the HRE having 1000+ development is not gamebreaking for precisely that reason. If you're going to argue 'history and realism' as a reason to keep China as one tag I will argue that it's bad for gameplay, and as Wiz said:

This is fair enough, but it's going to have to be a historically based fracture with historical rulers. And even then, I still have reservations about giving China 50% more provinces and doubling their development.

And regarding Japan, I guess we're just going to ignore the fact that Japan produced enough firearms to field a massive force of gunners (disputed exactly how many) during the Sengoku era and the Imjin wars?

You're forgetting that most of the muskets Japan had were also imported; the only major musket factories were in Kansai, at Sakai and Kunitomo.

So if development isn't population, and it's not production, then what exactly is it representing- those abstract concepts you defined? All of that stuff you just mentioned was literally made up by you and has nothing to do with EU4, at all.

Really, now?

University gives -20% Development Cost - seems like local education represents development.

Farmlands and Grasslands are easier to develop than Deserts and Mountains - seems like terrain factors into it. Nevermind many NI sets that mention developing the land in their ideas that give bonuses to development cost, like Netherland's Polders and Ajuuraan's Hydraulic Empire.

Mechanical Power plays a massive part in production, being far more efficient than human power. I don't think you are going to be contesting that Development doesn't cover production.

I also don't think you're going to contest that population also factors into starting development.

Given that the finisher for Economics gives -20% Development cost as well - attained right after unlocking Smithian Economics - it does indeed seem that development also represents social mobility and the opportunities from it.

I understand development as the game represents it; if certain policies/buildings/ideas give bonuses to development cost, or certain regions have high development, there's a reason for it and usually a good one.

 

[NaiveCarto]

Korea seems way to high, the only thing I´ve found on internet is this:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-35xCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=korea+population+1600&source=bl&ots=4mm1MohRlC&sig=OLgd5C65gWAcUKHD6CA0mrs_g8M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi--dWNpOfQAhUF8RQKHTflDxc4ChDoAQg4MAY#v=onepage&q=korea population 1600&f=false

Now you have high numbers in 1000 AD but Korea didn´t really have a good time in the later era(in a sense they did but the aftermath of the Mongol invasion and the later Manchu invasion made it only temporary), so the 1600 could have only temporary. In any case I dobut they had their population so close to the Japanese numbers.

Thank you for your book, while unfortunately I found my vpn was up to date, while I could get access to CiNii, if you could find some articles there you could reply me yet.

For the strange population record of Joeson, These records can be of no use to rebuild the demographics of Joeson:
1, 1395AD 153403 Households; 2, 1432AD: 226320 Households; 3, 1543AD: 836669 Housseholds; 4, 1639AD: 441827 Households; 5, 1650: 758417 Households;
6, 1669AD: 1313652 Households; 7,1721AD: 1559408 Households; 8, 1732AD: 1713849 Households

From the official population record in 1910AD BY JOESON: 1384493 Households, 4.2 Pop/House Ratio; And the same record BY JAPAN: 2742263 Households, 4.7 Pop/House Ratio, and after the Japan's rule in Joeson got stable, the population of Korea in 1950AD is about 28 Million.

As my search, that in 1753AD population of Joeson is 7.3 Million, this is the official population, the population reduce during 1590s and 1630s should be huge, if we believe over 50% population was hide off the population record of Joeson, the 7.75 Miilion people in 1440s might be of any possibility.

 

[kitemasaki]

I'm curious though, why no dev response?

Because the Sinophobia is real at Pdox?
You can even see that in their first expansion with HOI4.

 

[Dakka]

I'm curious though, why no dev response?

The closest thing I've ever gotten was when Johan told me that 1.16 wouldn't be focused on Asia on Twitter. Other than that they seem to avoid commenting on these threads like a plague

 

[wingzero890]

Because the Sinophobia is real at Pdox?
You can even see that in their first expansion with HOI4.

Maybe they're angry at the Koreans too- North Korea owes sweden a ton of money for some Volvos apparently

 

[Grand Historian]

The closest thing I've ever gotten was when Johan told me that 1.16 wouldn't be focused on Asia on Twitter. Other than that they seem to avoid commenting on these threads like a plague

Asia, Forts, Catholicism, threads about Twitter polls and so on...

Maybe they're angry at the Koreans too- North Korea owes sweden a ton of money for some Volvos apparently

And there's still the fallout from the original DW, so that covers Japan.

 

[NaiveCarto]

Maybe they're angry at the Koreans too- North Korea owes sweden a ton of money for some Volvos apparently

The Third best way to avoid Sinophobia, make a 1356 Scanerio. The second best way to avoid Sinophobia: Deny any explaination of developments;
The BEST Way to avoid Sinophobia: Blank the China. Why China has more population than Europe and union, this is punlishment from West!

 

[Trin Tragula]

I'm curious though, why no dev response?

The thread title makes this impossible to reply to in a meaningful way as I couldn't comment on what next patch is or what it is not. It's something that we try to never do as it makes people assume things. I will make a general reply about Asia though:

If you go through previous posts by me you'll see we have commented on Asian things before (and if you go really far back to before I started working here and was still a modder you might find I have a real soft spot for Asian history ).
All I will say is that we hope to make every corner of the world more flavorful and accurate at some point (but the world has many corners!) and if people think the time the Danish events took to make for 1.19 was anywhere near an Asian overhaul they'd be quite mistaken
I won't and couldn't say exactly when we will get to a particular part of the world though

 

[Zerodv]

The Third best way to avoid Sinophobia, make a 1356 Scanerio. The second best way to avoid Sinophobia: Deny any explaination of developments;
The BEST Way to avoid Sinophobia: Blank the China. Why China has more population than Europe and union, this is punlishment from West!

I didn´t get the scenario part.

 

[Zerodv]

The thread title makes this impossible to reply to in a meaningful way as I couldn't comment on what next patch is or what it is not.

If you go through previous posts by me you'll see we have commented on Asian things before (and if you go really far back to before I started working here and was still a modder you might find I have a real soft spot for Asian history ).
All I will say is that we hope to make every corner of the world more flavorful and accurate at some point and if people think the time the Danish events took to make for 1.19 was anywhere near an Asian overhaul they'd be quite mistaken

I bet this is a subtle way to confirm 1.20 is a East Asia overhaul.

 

[wingzero890]

The thread title makes this impossible to reply to in a meaningful way as I couldn't comment on what next patch is or what it is not.

If you go through previous posts by me you'll see we have commented on Asian things before (and if you go really far back to before I started working here and was still a modder you might find I have a real soft spot for Asian history ).
All I will say is that we hope to make every corner of the world more flavorful and accurate at some point and if people think the time the Danish events took to make for 1.19 was anywhere near an Asian overhaul they'd be quite mistaken

 

[chrisisarea]

EUROPA UNIVERSALIS ... has the subject in his name. Iam fine if PDX would leave off far east because Europe is what the game is about and that's the reason IAM playing it. That's of course my opinion you don't have to share it but that's why iam not " upset " if Asia stay as it is.

 

[Jules Brunet]

This is fair enough, but it's going to have to be a historically based fracture with historical rulers. And even then, I still have reservations about giving China 50% more provinces and doubling their development.



You're forgetting that most of the muskets Japan had were also imported; the only major musket factories were in Kansai, at Sakai and Kunitomo.

Well, looking at Perrin for instance, looks like Japan was one of the biggest firearm producer, if not the first, in the late Sengoku era.

 

[NaiveCarto]

When have we ever announced ahead of time what a patch would be? The thread title makes this impossible to reply to in a meaningful way as I couldn't comment on what next patch is or what it is not.

If you go through previous posts by me you'll see we have commented on Asian things before (and if you go really far back to before I started working here and was still a modder you might find I have a real soft spot for Asian history ).
All I will say is that we hope to make every corner of the world more flavorful and accurate at some point and if people think the time the Danish events took to make for 1.19 was anywhere near an Asian overhaul they'd be quite mistaken

I would like to make any funny in this forum, and this post satisfied my mind.in fact, I am satisfied with the lastest edition and I know when the development has to be connected with population/wealth or anything else, it is a disaster to the EU4.Though the recent East Asian map of course surely need a new redone, while I do think anyone else would think the Japanese Sengoku need to be redone shall be more vital ( But I am a "Naive Cartographer" yet) , the DW Japan Mechanism should be referenced.

The Ordinary Suggestions of East Asia DLC( If is planned) are: 1, Make a Dynasty Cycle on dynasties of China to replace the recent Mandate of Heaven System or something else (like events) to reflect the consequence of collepse of Dynasty and also Society; 2, Any provinces could be added to Ming with also a strong development added, but along with the modifier of Army Corruption and rebels in Guangxi and Guizhou; 3, The Shogunate Mechanism should be added and no Japan in start scanerio, also provinces need to be added; 4, If OK, put out the province population again for modding; 5, Reconsider the Vietnam, Vietnam never rise in my saves; 6, Korea could get a high development rising but also add a limit of Minimum Autonomy and Army Corruption to reflect its extremely higher corruption and inability compared with Ming.

These are what I have searched for province modding in East Asia, I hope I could help you in province modding in this way( Very Big, >30M PDF) :

 

[Grand Historian]

Well, looking at Perrin for instance, looks like Japan was one of the biggest firearm producer, if not the first, in the late Sengoku era.

Oh, I'm not disputing that Japan wasn't a major firearms producer during the late Sengoku Era - in fact, it had the highest number of firearms per capita during the Imjin War, some manufactured in Japan, some imported.

But then the Tokugawa took over and Japan became backwater and isolationist again.