Is there any hope for 1.20 China Patch?

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Zylathas

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A balance of power mechanic would and should be universal; it wasn't just unique to Italy - all of Europe, India, etc. had those dynamics.

But a great works of art mechanic would be interesting I suppose, but I don't see it coming without some new modifiers.

Well, I think a balance of power mechanic for Italy in specific would be important because nations actively made sure none of the different parties got too strong there. Especially before the 1600's. Perhaps this could be done with an "italian monarchy" and "italian republic" government form, that are more unstable, but allow nations to ally with one great power while not allowing alliance with more then one italian state.

Outside of that, I still think this game misses a pope loading screen and the fact that the papal states aren't actually multiple states.

A great work of arts feature I would personally theme up with prestige and perhaps a new culture mechanic, where more cultural advanced countries have faster institution spread and more prestige. Perhaps it could also be tied to trade where highly cultural countries generate more trade power then countries that aren't as culturally orientated.
 
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Koramei

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Well, I think a balance of power mechanic for Italy in specific would be important because nations actively made sure none of the different parties got too strong there. Especially before the 1600's.

This is pretty much how all nations have operated (or at least attempted) with their rivals throughout all of history, dude.


India/Persia need some more love next, I think. Formation of the Mughals in India, conversions to Shia in Persia. Buffs to Persia could act as a significant check to the Ottomans, too.

Something to do with art and culture along with an Italy expansion does sound pretty cool though.
 
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Dakka

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I'm thinking the Ottos could use another buff and unique mechanic since they can't conquer half the world by 1450.
Well, they are getting one with absolutism. They took the advantage of Absolute monarchy and gave the bonus to everyone, so not only did the other countries lose the advantage, but Ottomans gained the ability to be equal or better... again
//run salt.exe
 

Zylathas

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This is pretty much how all nations have operated (or at least attempted) with their rivals throughout all of history, dude.


India/Persia need some more love next, I think. Formation of the Mughals in India, conversions to Shia in Persia. Buffs to Persia could act as a significant check to the Ottomans, too.

Something to do with art and culture along with an Italy expansion does sound pretty cool though.


Well, perhaps a general muslim expansion would be great focussing on both north african berbers the mamlukes persia and indian muslims. I think that is an expansion that a lot of things could be done with, perhaps finnaly some kind of Shari'a mechanic?
 
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Josph

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I really think the Asian nations need a revamp. Grand Historian's Japan suggestions are some I've really liked. Maybe some Shinto and Confucianism mechanics would be nice, as well as some flavor events, like possibly a personal deity-like system for schools of thought in Confucianism or virtues in Shinto/bushido. I think the Mandate of Heaven and China's instability is shown not as well as it could; it's either super unstable and Ming explodes all the time or completely stagnant and Ming doesn't run into any problems during the course of the game. It'd be nice to see a China that would have some more aspects of balancing unrest in a way that is difficult, but doesn't punish immediately you for just a few wrong choices. Korea is also a spot for flavor and improvement. It's been a bit ignored and tossed aside, with just a bit of flavor to gameplay to be interesting, but not enough focus to make it fun.
 

kitemasaki

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I really think the Asian nations need a revamp. Grand Historian's Japan suggestions are some I've really liked. Maybe some Shinto and Confucianism mechanics would be nice, as well as some flavor events, like possibly a personal deity-like system for schools of thought in Confucianism or virtues in Shinto/bushido. I think the Mandate of Heaven and China's instability is shown not as well as it could; it's either super unstable and Ming explodes all the time or completely stagnant and Ming doesn't run into any problems during the course of the game. It'd be nice to see a China that would have some more aspects of balancing unrest in a way that is difficult, but doesn't punish immediately you for just a few wrong choices. Korea is also a spot for flavor and improvement. It's been a bit ignored and tossed aside, with just a bit of flavor to gameplay to be interesting, but not enough focus to make it fun.
That is what the new DLC brings. I hope you caught that.
 
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Dakka

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That is what the new DLC brings. I hope you caught that.
Or at least a Ming Tributary System. We aren't sure what the new Japanese rework does yet.

I think it's funny that more hype has been generated by a couple comments and a few screenshots for the next DLC than the past four DDs combined... maybe Johan should have led with the Asia stuff lol
 

Grand Historian

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This is pretty much how all nations have operated (or at least attempted) with their rivals throughout all of history, dude.


India/Persia need some more love next, I think. Formation of the Mughals in India, conversions to Shia in Persia. Buffs to Persia could act as a significant check to the Ottomans, too.

Something to do with art and culture along with an Italy expansion does sound pretty cool though.

I don't think there needs to be a devoted mechanic to just make the Mughals and Persia rise, but definitely something akin to the Dutch revolts (which Persia already borderline gets). Persia already starts out Shia, too; while the common argument is that it was a later Safavid development that saw the majority of Persia become Shia, there were some threads a while back where Chamboozer showed data that they were already Shia before the Safavids (if desired I can provide links).

The issue, of course, with how easy the Ottos steamroll Persia is not Persia; it's the Ottos. In my opinion they should not have equal Discipline with the Knights from Day 1, and should not be able to surpass them or other major Western Nations in Discipline without some sort of trouble. The double-standard freebies (cores, dev, Inf Ability, etc.) they get just exasperate issues, and ensure that by the time Persia forms the Ottos already have the unstoppable ball rolling.

Basically; nerf the Ottos heavily and possibly buff Persia and some of the Balkan minors (or at the very least, give Hungary the fighting chance it had historically).



Thinking about it now, when India gets revised so the Mughals and Marathas will appear more often, it would be a waste if Sikh wasn't given a mechanic then - as if Shinto and Confucianism are getting stuff this patch (I'm guessing there'll be a Shinto mechanic instead of a Shogunate one as Japan is still around from day one), then that would leave Sikh as the only religion left now without any unique mechanics (excepting generic paganism).
 
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Philadelphus

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Thinking about it now, when India gets revised so the Mughals and Marathas will appear more often, it would be a waste if Sikh wasn't given a mechanic then - as if Shinto and Confucianism are getting stuff this patch (I'm guessing there'll be a Shinto mechanic instead of a Shogunate one as Japan is still around from day one), then that would leave Sikh as the only religion left now without any unique mechanics (excepting generic paganism).
Totemism. Unless you were including that with Animism in generic paganism. Would be cool to see some Sikh mechanics, maybe have it cover more than the single province it usually does in my games.
 

Dakka

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Totemism. Unless you were including that with Animism in generic paganism. Would be cool to see some Sikh mechanics, maybe have it cover more than the single province it usually does in my games.
I honestly keep forgetting Sikhism is in the game...
 

JKiller96

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Heres to hoping for 1.21, Mongolia patch ;) Was a bit disappointed to see Tondo wasnt added to the Phillipines yet
 
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So watching the Dev Clash... It seems that the "China" counter periodically decreases. Except it doesn't seem to be a yearly thing or monthly or anything, which makes me think that the points are either spent by China, or if it is based on a die roll. However, it dropped from 80 to 49 in 2 years of game time, so I am guessing it is points spent. Trying to figure out what it means.

Also, seems that most of the nations bordering Ming start as its tributaries.

Japan seems to be functioning differently than normal, and the Daimyo do not have LD on their resource bar at the top of the screen, but the tributaries do.

Another couple things I've noticed: the war screen has another "peace" button located on the top left of the window, province windows now have a tab up top for their areas which sows all provinces in that area, their status, income, maintenance, and the edicts button, so it seems that edicts are indeed state-wide things.

I also noticed that in the Ages screen, Two Personal Unions for Age of Discovery has been replaced by "have five vassals", though I am unsure if it was completely replaced or is just that way for Asian nations.
 

MarkS00N

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Re-post here because I think this thread is more appropriate.

So beside new Chinese button on the bottom right, Ming (and probably other Chinese state) has two other new mechanic:
A replacement for Legitimacy (maybe new Mandate of Heaven?) and Decree (I don't see it in other nations tab)...

I've circled the new items in this picture.

bzK3ZAE.jpg
 
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bitmapmedivh

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Oh fantastic! I really am hopeful now!

Now the biggest question: assuming they do Japan and China well... what region of the world do we petition for next? :p
After East Asia we should obviously turn to SOUTH East Asia. :p

All joking aside, the Malay Archipelago (including the Phillipines) needs an overhaul and possibly a new type of government form to model the Mandal system that was pretty unique to the region.
 
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bitmapmedivh

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Heres to hoping for 1.21, Mongolia patch ;) Was a bit disappointed to see Tondo wasnt added to the Phillipines yet
A whole bunch of statelets that are already in the game should be added there on the earliest start date.
 
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So watching the Dev Clash... It seems that the "China" counter periodically decreases. Except it doesn't seem to be a yearly thing or monthly or anything, which makes me think that the points are either spent by China, or if it is based on a die roll. However, it dropped from 80 to 49 in 2 years of game time, so I am guessing it is points spent. Trying to figure out what it means.
Its most likely points gained and then spent on making nations pay tributes - like with papacy and HRE screens.


Edit: Should be easy enough to confirm by watching the stream when one of those messages appear. I'll check it later.

Edit 2: Couldn't really confirm - at least not without knowing player choice [Twitch time stamps - 1:16:01 and 1:19:40].
 
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I think the problem is not that they were not expansionist, but that expanding north into the nomads had nothing to gain and was impossible to hold.
It's really not about Ming was expansionist or not, but that Ming was never strong enough to expand into the north shortly after 1444. In 1449 emperor Zhu Qizhen was defeated and taken prisoner by Oirat in the major battle of Tumu, and after that Ming military went on full defensive, relying on expensive fortress system on the north. On the other hand, the resouce and manpower that Ming government can mobilize was in steady decline despite that economy was growing and population was booming. Such phenomenon is obviously beyond EU4 generic mechanics' capacity to explain, so instead of trying explaining, pdox just add a stupid 50% min autonomy limit to tell us that Ming sucks at the start but can get better in the future.

But in reality, Ming government was very efficient and expansive in its early years, but would become more and more corrupt, inefficient and inflexible in the future. I think the challenges that Ming faced can be appropriatly represented in game, and give players a way to fight them.

First, remove the min autonomy limit and give celestial empire estate setup.

Tusi estate (土司, native chieftain autonomous system) should work like the Dhimmi, it can only be given to non-confucius provinces with non-chinese culture. Tusi province should have a very high autonomous floor like 75%, but no penalty on manpower, minus unrest, and impossible to convert. Tusi would require 0% percent of development but an event would popup every time Ming conquered a not confucian nor chinese province, asking for player to choose between creating Tusi or high unrest in the province.

Shishen estate (士绅, Scholar-gentlemen, the union between bureaucrats and landowners) is the real master of imperial china so they would require a huge chunk of development. They give a normal 25% autonomy floor but remove penalty on tax base. However, multiple negative events could happen in a shishen dominated province.

1) Violent land consolidation. It's the most important issue that caused Ming to decline in real history. Powerful landowners using their bureaucratic privileges to force peasants into selling their land and become serf or refugees (so it causes unrest). Also in this process, a lot of land would be removed from the official record, thus reduced the tax base (in game it should not affect the real tax base, but a modifier on tax base). To give you an idea of the scale of tax base reduction in history: In 1391 there were 8804623.68 qing farmland on nationwide government record, in 1502 there was only 4292310.75 qing left. (<明代黄册制度>, 韦庆远, 1961) When a land consolidation event happens in a province, player should be given three choices: a) stop the shishen from acquiring lands using adm points/mandate/religious authority, thus avoid reduction in tax base, take estate loyalty loss and a provincial timed noble rebel unrest. b) do nothing and gain estate loyalty and influnence, let the tax base shrinks and get a timed peasant rebel unrest. c) try to put more tax on the now reduced tax base using adm points/mandate/religious authority, get less reduction in tax base, but a permanent peasant unrest.

2) Collaspe of Weisuo system. The weisuo (卫所) was the military personnel system in Ming dynasty, it basicly consist of fixed, hereditary soldier family called junhus(军户), given small fraction of land to sustain themselves at peacetime. They are the prime target of land consolidation, often turned into landless serfs of officers, and borrowed out by officers to landowners as labour. In time, more and more junhus would manage to escape their obligation, and weisuo system failed completely by 1550s, seriously damaged Ming government's ability to mobilize manpower. Not sure how to represent this in game, the loss in manpower is real, not hidden (unlike hidden lands), so it shouldnt be a modifer. In reality what Ming usually does was appointing new families as junhus, so maybe player can choose to take 1 manpower loss for 1 random tax base increase (the deserted junhus would eventually settle down somewhere), or take 1 tax base/production loss instead of manpower.

3) There were the wokou raid in southeastern coast, severly affecting Ming's overseas trade, but I havent thought this through. It should happen due to lack of trade protection in the southeastern trade nodes, and the lack of trade protection should be the result of naval policy shifting after the last voyage of Zhen He. Maybe it can be made as a disaster?

And the millitary estate should exist too, but not the merchant guild - they were never an independent faction during imperial chinese history.

The faction system needs a rework, particularly the ridiculous temple faction. It should be replaced by the millitary faction, which is still quite influential before 1449 battle of Tumu, but their social profile would become lower and lower in later centuries. The bureaucrat faction should be spilt up into at least two, a conservative one and a reformative one. The reformist bureaucrat faction was best represented by Zhang Juren, imperial senior grand secretary from 1572 to 1582. He did everything he could to combat the land consolidation, bureaucratic corruption and failure of millitary system, enacted reforms on tax system and to reclaim tax-exempt land. This would become the main function of reformist faction in game, to get rid of all the debuff we get from shishen estate events.

I think it would be awesome to combine this with the new mandate system. Under conservative bureaucrats, we get mandate through events of imperial rites, grand ceremony of Confucius, and suffer from shrinking income and manpower. Under reformist leadership, we spend mandate to get rid of previous debuffs. I assume low mandate would still be very damaging to china, so player would not want either faction to stay in power forever. Actually that's exactly how Ming emperors works in history. Also the number of tributary state should be a steady source of mandate income.

I can also think of some special rebel and disaster types for china. Refugees are the most horrific rebel in Chinese history, in game refugees should be able to raise another army instantly from any provinces they captured. So players must stay focused on defeating they early before they snowballed (which is exactly what happened in the last decade of Ming). About the special disasters and confucian mechanics, if anyone is interested in these ideas above, I'll discuss them later.
 
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It's really not about Ming was expansionist or not, but that Ming was never strong enough to expand into the north shortly after 1444. In 1449 emperor Zhu Qizhen was defeated and taken prisoner by Oirat in the major battle of Tumu, and after that Ming military went on full defensive, relying on expensive fortress system on the north. On the other hand, the resouce and manpower that Ming government can mobilize was in steady decline despite that economy was growing and population was booming. Such phenomenon is obviously beyond EU4 generic mechanics' capacity to explain, so instead of trying explaining, pdox just add a stupid 50% min autonomy limit to tell us that Ming sucks at the start but can get better in the future.

But in reality, Ming government was very efficient and expansive in its early years, but would become more and more corrupt, inefficient and inflexible in the future. I think the challenges that Ming faced can be appropriatly represented in game, and give players a way to fight them.

First, remove the min autonomy limit and give celestial empire estate setup.

Tusi estate (土司, native chieftain autonomous system) should work like the Dhimmi, it can only be given to non-confucius provinces with non-chinese culture. Tusi province should have a very high autonomous floor like 75%, but no penalty on manpower, minus unrest, and impossible to convert. Tusi would require 0% percent of development but an event would popup every time Ming conquered a not confucian nor chinese province, asking for player to choose between creating Tusi or high unrest in the province.

Shishen estate (士绅, Scholar-gentlemen, the union between bureaucrats and landowners) is the real master of imperial china so they would require a huge chunk of development. They give a normal 25% autonomy floor but remove penalty on tax base. However, multiple negative events could happen in a shishen dominated province.

1) Violent land consolidation. It's the most important issue that caused Ming to decline in real history. Powerful landowners using their bureaucratic privileges to force peasants into selling their land and become serf or refugees (so it causes unrest). Also in this process, a lot of land would be removed from the official record, thus reduced the tax base (in game it should not affect the real tax base, but a modifier on tax base). To give you an idea of the scale of tax base reduction in history: In 1391 there were 8804623.68 qing farmland on nationwide government record, in 1502 there was only 4292310.75 qing left. (<明代黄册制度>, 韦庆远, 1961) When a land consolidation event happens in a province, player should be given three choices: a) stop the shishen from acquiring lands using adm points/mandate/religious authority, thus avoid reduction in tax base, take estate loyalty loss and a provincial timed noble rebel unrest. b) do nothing and gain estate loyalty and influnence, let the tax base shrinks and get a timed peasant rebel unrest. c) try to put more tax on the now reduced tax base using adm points/mandate/religious authority, get less reduction in tax base, but a permanent peasant unrest.

2) Collaspe of Weisuo system. The weisuo (卫所) was the military personnel system in Ming dynasty, it basicly consist of fixed, hereditary soldier family called junhus(军户), given small fraction of land to sustain themselves at peacetime. They are the prime target of land consolidation, often turned into landless serfs of officers, and borrowed out by officers to landowners as labour. In time, more and more junhus would manage to escape their obligation, and weisuo system failed completely by 1550s, seriously damaged Ming government's ability to mobilize manpower. Not sure how to represent this in game, the loss in manpower is real, not hidden (unlike hidden lands), so it shouldnt be a modifer. In reality what Ming usually does was appointing new families as junhus, so maybe player can choose to take 1 manpower loss for 1 random tax base increase (the deserted junhus would eventually settle down somewhere), or take 1 tax base/production loss instead of manpower.

3) There were the wokou raid in southeastern coast, severly affecting Ming's overseas trade, but I havent thought this through. It should happen due to lack of trade protection in the southeastern trade nodes, and the lack of trade protection should be the result of naval policy shifting after the last voyage of Zhen He. Maybe it can be made as a disaster?

And the millitary estate should exist too, but not the merchant guild - they were never an independent faction during imperial chinese history.

The faction system needs a rework, particularly the ridiculous temple faction. It should be replaced by the millitary faction, which is still quite influential before 1449 battle of Tumu, but their social profile would become lower and lower in later centuries. The bureaucrat faction should be spilt up into at least two, a conservative one and a reformative one. The reformist bureaucrat faction was best represented by Zhang Juren, imperial senior grand secretary from 1572 to 1582. He did everything he could to combat the land consolidation, bureaucratic corruption and failure of millitary system, enacted reforms on tax system and to reclaim tax-exempt land. This would become the main function of reformist faction in game, to get rid of all the debuff we get from shishen estate events.

I think it would be awesome to combine this with the new mandate system. Under conservative bureaucrats, we get mandate through events of imperial rites, grand ceremony of Confucius, and suffer from shrinking income and manpower. Under reformist leadership, we spend mandate to get rid of previous debuffs. I assume low mandate would still be very damaging to china, so player would not want either faction to stay in power forever. Actually that's exactly how Ming emperors works in history. Also the number of tributary state should be a steady source of mandate income.

I can also think of some special rebel and disaster types for china. Refugees are the most horrific rebel in Chinese history, in game refugees should be able to raise another army instantly from any provinces they captured. So players must stay focused on defeating they early before they snowballed (which is exactly what happened in the last decade of Ming). About the special disasters and confucian mechanics, if anyone is interested in these ideas above, I'll discuss them later.
Nice ideas. Did you put that in the suggestion section? I recommend you do that if you haven't.;)
 
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