Is there any hope for 1.20 China Patch?

[bitmapmedivh]

Which China, the Ming or the Qing? The Ming weren't expansionist, but the Qing where, modern day China owes its borders to the Qing who added Manchuria, Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet to what is considered China with only Outer Mongolia breaking away. I would see if it's possible to at least mod the A.I Ming to be less interested in conquests perhaps doubling overextension and coring costs or for the Ming tag or any other traditional dynasty save the Qing tag.

I do agree a HRE mechanic would just make no sense at all if the Ming was like the later Han after Emperor Ling and had a weak emperor with semi-autonomous provinces then a "hre" system could work.

Ming was the dynasty that permanently incorporated Yunnan into the empire. They also conquered Dai Viet and large parts of Manchuria. That they were unable to hold onto them does not make them less expansionist however.

 

[iquabakaner]

Ming was the dynasty that permanently incorporated Yunnan into the empire. They also conquered Dai Viet and large parts of Manchuria. That they were unable to hold onto them does not make them less expansionist however.

I think the problem is not that they were not expansionist, but that expanding north into the nomads had nothing to gain and was impossible to hold.

 

[BarskiPatzow]

After PDX ****ed up the save system in 1.19, I'm just hoping they won't **** up any part of the game that has worked okay thus far.

Whats wrong with save system?

 

[ocelot64]

@BarskiPatzow What is wrong? Well, the game fails to save properly. Creating 0kb- save files.

 

[Warial]

Ming was the dynasty that permanently incorporated Yunnan into the empire. They also conquered Dai Viet and large parts of Manchuria. That they were unable to hold onto them does not make them less expansionist however.

They didn't conquer Machuria apart from initially pacifying Naghacu's Uriankhai forces. Later those areas were only under nominal control.

 

[ELPhantomII]

My proposal would be a decision similar to Forming the Roman Empire that changes government form into a less-garbage Celestial Empire - one that has embraced certain institutions rather than a generic monarchy.

Maybe some conditions include:
Must be in Chinese culture group
Must own/core provinces (Beijing, Nanjing, Guangdong, etc) and/or certain regions

Effects may include:
Gaining Mandate of Heaven modifier
Become Empire rank
Any other country loses the "[Advanced] Celestial Empire" and gains "Mandate of Heaven Lost" for a period, if not already active

 

[iquabakaner]

I would suggest not using the Mandate of Heaven at all, but a mechanic that allows constant struggle between reform+different bonus+elite class rebels and not reform+penalty+peasant rebels.

Historically Ming (and a number of other dynasties) attempted reforms. At various times it would succeed if the leading officials happen to be trusted by the emperor, but sometimes it would be revoked when another faction took over.

Peasant is another important factor in Chinese politics. Even though they never had de jure power within the system, they are usually the ones who rose and took over the country and started a new dynasty. I would suggest to buff peasant rebels in China and make it so that they can start a new dynasty (Shun, in Ming's example) if they grow too strong.

 

[Rikissa]

I would like if there was a Jurchen culture not in the Chinese group

And forming Manchu would turn your Jurchen provinces into Manchu provinces - there is support for this because forming the Roman Empire does change your primary culture provinces to Roman

I think it would add a lot of flavor

 

[Dakka]

So now we have an "Emperor of China" and "Bigger Banners" modifier in the latest DD.

I'm guessing that China is getting a rework, but not Japan. Hopefully Japan will get dedicated DLC/content in a coming patch.

 

[bitmapmedivh]

Reposting from the new DD for maximum speculation.

So we can now make a few guesses as to what the elusive China number mechanic was from the last DD. Seems likely that is a counter for this new Mandate. Oddly enough, in the screens it seems Britain is halfway to having fulfilled the objective though, being either Emperor of China or having atleast 50 Mandate.

But Emperor of China is new aswell. Does it simply refer to the tag that uses the Celestial Empire government type? Or is it something new entirely? The way it seems to be constructed, being an Age objective and all, would suggest that it's a title that is easier to usurp than before. There's a reason it's one of the objectives and the Manchu are one of the nations given a specific bonus for this age. And it looks to be a military bonus aswell, to help them in their conquests.

My guess is that this new Mandate mechanic is a combination of some of the ideas that I and a few others suggested in one of the China threads in the EUIV forum. That means a HRE-like system, with Mandate instead of Imperial Authority, but without China being divided into several independent tags. Mandate either gives bonii or malii depending on its level, or it allows the current emperor to do certain things like in the HRE. Low Mandate would presumably allow other tags in the Chinese tech group to claim the Emperorship, giving unique CB's and so on. I'd guess low Mandate also increases revolt risk and separatism and so on, thus being more likely to cause an implosion. The system then helps one of the tags in the area claim and conquer China so that a new Empire can arise instead of the current situation, where China usually implodes and then either stays imploded or Ming reconquers its cores one bit at a time.

I'm thinking the Banners alluded to here is a unique mechanic exclusive to the Manchu to give them enough manpower to conquer China. The Manchus didn't only have the Eight Banners, but also the Green Standard, which was made up of foreigners (read: Han Chinese) that fought for them. So perhaps the game system is a sort-of inverse of the Condottiere system, where Manchu are able to draw foreign manpower up to a certain size to field in their armies.

 

[MiniaAr]

Many new provinces in Japan, new mechanics in China/Manchuria. 1.20 is looking like the East Asian patch the OP asked for.

 

[Dakka]

Many new provinces in Japan, new mechanics in China/Manchuria. 1.20 is looking like the East Asian patch the OP asked for.

Or at least part of it. I'm guessing China is getting a rework, but aside from extra provinces it doesn't seem (initially) that Japan got any mechanical changes, which is the real issue with them.

HOWEVER, a change to Ming and the Chinese Emperorship in general will bring about a huge change in the Far East (assuming it can be usurped). We can't say for certain until the mechanic is actually released, but I am looking forward to reading its DD more than anything else Johan has announced thus far.

I just hope that I am either wrong on Japan's part or that it is getting its own DLC not to far off...

 

[kitemasaki]

Or at least part of it. I'm guessing China is getting a rework, but aside from extra provinces it doesn't seem (initially) that Japan got any mechanical changes, which is the real issue with them.

HOWEVER, a change to Ming and the Chinese Emperorship in general will bring about a huge change in the Far East (assuming it can be usurped). We can't say for certain until the mechanic is actually released, but I am looking forward to reading its DD more than anything else Johan has announced thus far.

I just hope that I am either wrong on Japan's part or that it is getting its own DLC not to far off...

Since we are finally getting a China DLC, it isn't far-fetched that a Japan DLC could arrive sometime as well. Highly unlikely anything major is happening to Japan this time, since this new Mandate mechanic will likely have taken a lot of time/resources to develop. But if it is successful, would make sense to chase that money trail

 

[Wudadi]

Since we are finally getting a China DLC, it isn't far-fetched that a Japan DLC could arrive sometime as well. Highly unlikely anything major is happening to Japan this time, since this new Mandate mechanic will likely have taken a lot of time/resources to develop. But if it is successful, would make sense to chase that money trail

Johan said japan has new stuff & new mechanics on twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/115371061

 

[SolSys]

Johan said japan has new stuff & new mechanics on twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/115371061

A time stamp would be nice.
I don't recall hearing it the stream itself [had to make some tea ].

 

[Dakka]

Johan said japan has new stuff & new mechanics on twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/115371061

Oh fantastic! I really am hopeful now!

Now the biggest question: assuming they do Japan and China well... what region of the world do we petition for next?

 

[Zerodv]

Oh fantastic! I really am hopeful now!

Now the biggest question: assuming they do Japan and China well... what region of the world do we petition for next?

Russia, Eastern Europe and Caucasia.

 

[Grand Historian]

Oh fantastic! I really am hopeful now!

Now the biggest question: assuming they do Japan and China well... what region of the world do we petition for next?

I'm thinking the Ottos could use another buff and unique mechanic since they can't conquer half the world by 1450.

 

[Zylathas]

Oh fantastic! I really am hopeful now!

Now the biggest question: assuming they do Japan and China well... what region of the world do we petition for next?

Italy, I still like something with great works of arts and Italian balance of power. Possibly something that better reflects Italian Wars where foreign nations can intervene into Italian wars and where rival foreign nations get claims in Italy if their rival has provinces in Italy.

 

[Grand Historian]

Italy, I still like something with great works of arts and Italian balance of power. Possibly something that better reflects Italian Wars where foreign nations can intervene into Italian wars and where rival foreign nations get claims in Italy if their rival has provinces in Italy.

A balance of power mechanic would and should be universal; it wasn't just unique to Italy - all of Europe, India, etc. had those dynamics.

But a great works of art mechanic would be interesting I suppose, but I don't see it coming without some new modifiers.