Is there an optimal patrol travel length and suppression strength?

[GloatingSwine]

For 108 naval cap we can build 108 corvettes which grants 1080 piracy suppression.
That amount of piracy suppression is enough to deal with almost 4 times more of said piracy (4 x 280 = 1120) or 4+ routes instead of 1 or 2.

But the upkeep is higher for corvettes, and the station will have a trade protection range of 6, which means that it can cover itself plus six jumps away in every direction, meaning that each station can also cover multiple routes.

By good placement of protection stations around your trade network you can vastly reduce the cost of protecting it.

 

[Stardance]

Here is the guide I made back in October. You can see how I've got about 1/6 of the galactic map covered, and star bases by themselves handle all piracy.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tive-development-of-trade-protection.1494036/

Assuming an initial cluster of say 9-12 planets within 8 jumps of your capital, you can set collection up so none of those planets generate piracy, with just one or two collectors. Then you just have to plan for the next two or three clusters of planets. Assuming you have two branches, you have three overlapping bases of protection, and a collector at the ends extending another 8. This design can easily handle 30+ planets worth of trade with no patrols.

If memory serves, the map linked above used 9 star fortresses with either 5-6 hangars or 5-6 trade hubs, depending on its purpose.

In my opinion, the cost/benefit of that setup is excellent.

I do agree that different maps may lend itself more to patrols, or a mix, and it is very nice to see that a variety of playstyles are supported.

Here's another bit of information I picked up when I searched for answers. While it would be really expensive, you can actually build up to three platforms on outposts (un-upgraded starbases). Each platform provides 2 protection. Some people actually do this to boost their protection on long routes.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Here's another bit of information I picked up when I searched for answers. While it would be really expensive, you can actually build up to three platforms on outposts (un-upgraded starbases). Each platform provides 2 protection. Some people actually do this to boost their protection on long routes.

Whilst this is horribly uneconomical due to the stupid price of defence platforms, if you've got one or two systems that love to spawn pirates putting like one hangar platform in them will usually delete whatever spawns and its base.

 

[4xForEver]

Here is the guide I made back in October. You can see how I've got about 1/6 of the galactic map covered, and star bases by themselves handle all piracy.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tive-development-of-trade-protection.1494036/

Thanks, I take a look into your guide when I'm done with my game!

 

[TrotBot]

First by "patrol travel length" I mean count of star systems that a patrol fleet would go trough on it's patrol mission,
and "Suppression strength" is patrol fleet piracy suppression strength.

Here is an example of a 7 stars long trade route where the numbers represent "max piracy":

279
239
227
218
191
160
142

Our job here is to assign a patrol fleet to the route above, and the problem is whether to assign 1 or 2 or more patrol fleets and what would be optimal suppression strength of these (or single) fleet(s)?
The ultimate goal is to collect trade value and avoiding pirates popping out on that route.

Before you jump in consider there are 2 major problems that contribute to this issue as follows:
1. More fleets means faster max piracy cool downs because patrol fleet would return sooner to each of the systems due to shorter travel length.
2. The higher the suppression strength (than max piracy) faster will cool down be per system.

Precondition to solve this, results in 2 sub questions:

1. What is the optimal suppression strength relative to max piracy? (ex. I think if max piracy is 240, then optimal suppression strength is 280 or more or less?)
2. What is the optimal patrol travel length? (ex. I think 3-4 systems would be optimal, higher than this is counterproductive while lower is more expensive in terms of naval cap. and ship maintenance)

Therefore suppression strength is relative to travel length in addition to max piracy, but what is the optimal and how to develop some formula to let us calculate optimal?
Please consider sample route above to present your solution to the problem.

Btw. gateways are not a solution I'm looking for because that's late game tech.

EDIT:

Short version solution:

+8% patrol suppression strength increase is required per system.

For example above, a patrol route that covers 7 systems where max piracy of most affected systems is 279 "max piracy", would require 7 x 8 = 56% increase in suppression strength, which means this patrol fleet would need to be of 279 x 1,56 = 435,25 suppression strength or 44 corvettes.

Long version solution

optimal length is zero, optimal strength is 6 hangarbays on a starbase. they provide protection for 6 jumps plus base protection (so 7 jumps total i think). a jump through a gateway counts as one jump. so start with starbases near your highest trade value systems, then start putting gateways near those protection bases so they can extend coverage through every gateway like a cell network.

 

[GloatingSwine]

optimal length is zero, optimal strength is 6 hangarbays on a starbase. they provide protection for 6 jumps plus base protection (so 7 jumps total i think). a jump through a gateway counts as one jump. so start with starbases near your highest trade value systems, then start putting gateways near those protection bases so they can extend coverage through every gateway like a cell network.

Though once you've got gateways you just build them on the trade stations and they send the trade through the gateway and it no longer needs protection because the route length is 0.

 

[TrotBot]

Though once you've got gateways you just build them on the trade stations and they send the trade through the gateway and it no longer needs protection because the route length is 0.

yeah, eventually when you have gateways everywhere, till then you still keep one protection station on a portal at least.

 

[bunkerman]

In my experience trying to do anything otehr than starbase snake for trade collection is futile, if you do the snake right you can cover 50-100 system empire in the midgame pretty easily with it while all you are using is 2-3 stations as trade hubs and rest can be shipyards/anchorages no need to waste anything on either corvettes or hangar bays and stuff. This always was and always will be the best strategy to deal with piracy as lke this pirates also never spawn any fleets no matter what.

and as for the argument of the guy still being almost 2k energy in profit from his trades, all ill say is if he did starbase snake properly he would have 100% of the trade value for free unless he has a fairly big empire in low hyperlane galacy generation

 

[Strangedane]

Thanks for reply.


How can this even remotely be true?

In my current game I'm collecting 2454 energy from trade without the use of any gateways yet. (approx. 90% is gateway free trade)
Approximate amount of energy that I spend on patrol ships in this game is 350 energy and 75 alloys (250 patrol corvettes x 1.5 energy = 375; x 0.3 alloys = 75)
Naval capacity is not an issues at all as well, easy to get it with strongholds.

As you can see I'm generating approx. profit of 1700 energy thanks to patrol fleets (excluding trade protection)

We're clearly playing this game very differently so anything I say will sound greek to you.
At 250 naval cap, you should have access to gates.
At 250 SPARE naval cap, you should have won the game.

Collecting 2500 credits from trade is nice and all, but you sound like you're so much behind in tech it doesn't matter.
What year and what tech cost setting?
At 1.0 cost gates should begin getting ready around 2275.

 

[4xForEver]

We're clearly playing this game very differently so anything I say will sound greek to you.
At 250 naval cap, you should have access to gates.
At 250 SPARE naval cap, you should have won the game.

Collecting 2500 credits from trade is nice and all, but you sound like you're so much behind in tech it doesn't matter.
What year and what tech cost setting?
At 1.0 cost gates should begin getting ready around 2275.

Good point my friend!
Because some of us indeed speaks greek because of different gameplay preferences.

My gameplay setting is as follows:
Tech\tradition cost: x2.75
1K stars.
I got gates cca. at year 2330, that's 130 years of gameplay without gateways and well developed economy and lots of trade which is why I prefer and discuss patrols.
Right now I have 1600 naval cap. (20% was dedicated to patrols until gateways)

I like colossal and very long gameplays that take weeks to finish that feel like true strategy.

I see most of you guys don't share same play preference so that may the reason why we don't understand each other, you made a good point indeed!

 

[Strangedane]

Good point my friend!
Because some of us indeed speaks greek because of different gameplay preferences.

My gameplay setting is as follows:
Tech\tradition cost: x2.75
1K stars.
I got gates cca. at year 2330, that's 130 years of gameplay without gateways and well developed economy and lots of trade which is why I prefer and discuss patrols.
Right now I have 1600 naval cap. (20% was dedicated to patrols until gateways)

I like colossal and very long gameplays that take weeks to finish that feel like true strategy.

I see most of you guys don't share same play preference so that may the reason why we don't understand each other, you made a good point indeed!

Yeah that'll make a difference.
I run 1000 stars, 30 ai, GA and 1.0 tech costs.

Either you come out swinging or you die real fast.
Or even worse, get locked into a 50 year do nothing situation as federation blocks become static.

 

[4xForEver]

I run 1000 stars, 30 ai, GA and 1.0 tech costs.

Nice and aggressive setup, but I recommend you to avoid 1.0 tech for 3 reasons:
1. Fast research makes gameplay boring too soon
2. Fast research makes you harvest benefits too early which determines a lot of things starting with space battles.
3. Fast research in unrealistic, to develop useful technology should take time, effort and uncertainty!

 

[Strangedane]

Nice and aggressive setup, but I recommend you to avoid 1.0 tech for 3 reasons:
1. Fast research makes gameplay boring too soon
2. Fast research makes you harvest benefits too early which determines a lot of things starting with space battles.
3. Fast research in unrealistic, to develop useful technology should take time, effort and uncertainty!

1. Disagree. Slow research makes the game much too easy for my tastes.
2. Slow research makes the AI fall behind in tech much faster resulting in games that are over by 2250 instead of 2300. The AI is already struggling to get battleships in a timely fashion, delaying me 15 years and them 50 makes this worse.
3. Not gonna touch the realism argument, besides saying that there are things much worse for my suspension of disbelief than the time it takes to research a tech.

These are all personal experiences of course, and very subjective to personal tastes and playstyle.

 

[4xForEver]

These are all personal experiences of course, and very subjective to personal tastes and playstyle.

True.

It's all subjective, not all people are same, we all have different preferences.

You said your preference is GA? my most challenging game is "Admiral", grand admiral is beyond my XP and pleasure, is there any guide or tips to defend my pathetic empire in first "50" years or until I can feel safe?

 

[bunkerman]

i play mostly on 5x tech cost but still patrols are never needed, starbase snake of trade collection collects all no problem

 

[Strangedane]

True.

It's all subjective, not all people are same, we all have different preferences.

You said your preference is GA? my most challenging game is "Admiral", grand admiral is beyond my XP and pleasure, is there any guide or tips to defend my pathetic empire in first "50" years or until I can feel safe?

GA is all about either getting some extra caps early OR making a few AI guarantee you while you tech up hard.
The extra cap start is stronger but not always possible.

While the starting 32 fleet cap for the ai is harsh, you can outproduce them if you go hard enough in on alloys.

 

[4xForEver]

While the starting 32 fleet cap for the ai is harsh, you can outproduce them if you go hard enough in on alloys.

Alloys are always such a problem, especially in the beginning of game when there is not enough pops and when everything else is needed as well.

ex. I need bureaucracy, minerals, energy, more ships, more alloys and more everything.
It's so difficult to focus on alloys only, and even if you do that's a sacrifice of other things just to boost your stats to prevent the AI from attacking you.

i play mostly on 5x tech cost but still patrols are never needed, starbase snake of trade collection collects all no problem

I'm pretty sure you can't snake your entry empire, either you exclude something or your starbases serve no other purpose than trade.

 

[Strangedane]

Alloys are always such a problem, especially in the beginning of game when there is not enough pops and when everything else is needed as well.

ex. I need bureaucracy, minerals, energy, more ships, more alloys and more everything.
It's so difficult to focus on alloys only, and even if you do that's a sacrifice of other things just to boost your stats to prevent the AI from attacking you.

Yeah all those other things are why you want to snatch up extra capitals.

If you're going for the aggressive approach, you will not be investing in neither tech nor bureaucracy before you take your first extra cap.
Your cap should be focused on alloys at the expense of everything else than what you need to keep afloat.
Your first guaranteed produces minerals and alloys and the second makes bureacrats. The second one should come after you have taken an extra cap though.
Focus the second cap on tech and more alloys and you should be good to snowball.

Early on, you should only take a few systems with high resources and a planet system and save the influence for the claims needed.

 

[4xForEver]

Yeah all those other things are why you want to snatch up extra capitals.

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "capitals"?

 

[Strangedane]

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "capitals"?

Capital planets with all their delicious pops.