Is there an Austria Hungary Manpower Bug?

[foamingjetty]

I tried to find definitive information about my last experience playing Austria-Hungary. Lots of people seem frustrated about Hungary's designed low manpower and there is some conversation about how to accommodate it. However, my most recent experience feels like a bug rather than a challenge. I don't play this alter-history corner of the game much, so I thought I'd ask here. Can anybody corroborate this or help me put it to rest?

I was in a multiplayer game, so circumstances were less than ideal. Austria declined the referendum, so I ... persuaded them. After the war and coring, my Total Manpower should have been around 160k, but I only had access to some 80k. Despite feeling like the war wasn't that bloody, I gritted my teeth and increased conscription to volunteers.

As my manpower mobilized, the gap between Total Manpower and Used Manpower increased proportionally. I was always allotted about 45% of the manpower I should have had on paper. Why? Even if I had killed 90k men between myself and Austria in the war, that should not affect newly mobilizing troops in my core states. I increased conscription again.

I had to move quickly to protect Czechs, but due to events elsewhere they were becoming the guarantor of liberty in the world and also declined. So I ... persuaded them. I was able to cut off the tail pretty early and hold them pinned while taking northern cities. After the war, my Total Manpower should have been 787.74k, but I only had access to 233k, specifically my own survivors of those I brought into the war and not another soul. I know I haven't killed a half million men, and Czechs are now my cores. Why doesn't manpower in this part of the world behave like core manpower conquered elsewhere, eg China? Every single state in Czechoslovakia shows zero conscriptable men. The behavior is persistent through restarts.

My first suspicion: There is something bugged specifically about Hungary's empire path, whenever your expansion targets refuse diplomatic annexation. That would immediately explain why I start with only Hungary's available manpower after coring Austria, increase conscription and observe the fraction of available troops increasing in relation to Hungary's fraction of the empire's population, and end with huge gaps between expected and actual manpower after coring Austria and Czechs.

My second suspicion: The game is just killing all soldiers raised by my target country at peace deal, regardless of whether they were encircled or even saw combat. My careful attempts to avoid killing them are pointless. The game also tracks this body debt and it is big enough that I'd have to raise conscription at least twice to get out of debt and see gains from my new territories. That would suggest that eventually I'd get manpower out of new cores, when I hit extensive conscription and not before. But killing every man currently in arms at the peace deal is the opposite of what Hungary is trying to do in a war for cores...

My third suspicion: The game is killing all men who are encircled at the time of peace conference. Maybe this is standard behavior and I only notice it because manpower is so pinched and maneuver to end these particular wars quickly means cutting off nearly everybody. If that's true, it would make some sense (but still be poor design for Hungary's situation, unfortunate to the point of breaking that mp save). It still wouldn't justify the behavior that increasing conscription only affects Hungary's original cores and apparently not its focus tree cores.

The gap between actual manpower and Total Manpower has been very noticeable lately after civil wars or unification wars. I don't know if it's because it has become a bigger problem for the game or if I'm on a non-historical kick playing countries like Hungary in wacky MP and suddenly care more than I used to. In this case, the gap means game over and I'd love to know the justification for it. Can anybody confirm any of my suspicions, or tell me I'm crazy and explain what is really going on for Hungary here?

 

[Áurum]

I think it's the second, because, from my experience, countries keep their manpower pool even when they disappear, it doesn't go back to states. A solution could be puppeting Czechoslovakia in a small state, so you have access to all that manpower, stealing its manpower and then annexing it again.

 

[GrandVezir]

The game is just killing all soldiers raised by my target country at peace deal, regardless of whether they were encircled or even saw combat. My careful attempts to avoid killing them are pointless.

This mechanic (like many that harsh minor powers) is designed to prevent powers like Germany and the USSR from gaining even more manpower from early conquest. Considering that the game is based around Germany, let's see the cases it's trying to model:

1. Germany annexes Austria, essentially peacefully. They get full manpower and incorporate the entire Austrian army directly into their own, no losses. Since this is essentially what happened historically, it's a perfectly reasonable model.
2. Germany annexes the Sudetenland and later occupies the rest of the Czech lands, both relatively peacefully. They get full manpower (modified by core/non-core state status), a fairly useless puppet, and all the equipment the Czech army used to have. But they don't get the standing army as their own. Which also makes sense historically: the Germans didn't field large formations of Czech troops, instead using the manpower in ways that aren't modelled in game. The relative peacefulness of annexing Bohemia and Moravia in a historical way, is reflected in high compliance for those occupied states.
3. Germany conquers Poland, not at all peacefully. What army the Germans didn't kill in the field is essentially removed from the game, in ways we're not allowed to discuss in this forum, and the Germans get a whole bunch of resistance instead. In this context, the Germans were never going to willingly give guns to large numbers of Poles, especially those who had served in the army.

The game handles these cases in a way that makes sense for Germany, and for the USSR, and for any major power that conquers rather than assimilates territory peacefully. The big powers just so happen to have huge manpower pools, so you can conquer without caring very much. Hungary is in a very different position, but the game has only one mechanic for anything other than friendly incorporation: the manpower from the existing army essentially disappears.

Incidentally, there is still value to sparing the enemy troops: you take fewer casualties yourself, and you get a much higher percentage of equipment from capitulation than from field capture.

 

[foamingjetty]

Thank you both for your thoughtful posts, I wondered if this was the case. I guess my hope was that since I was fighting for cores the manpower in the field might be spared. I'm used to experiencing nearly-full manpower jumps from unifying cores in the past, but you're saying that's only because usually manpower in the field is nowhere near available manpower.

In that sense, the developers are nerfing Hungary unintentionally by putting as many men (or more) in the field than Austria and Czech manpower can initially support. There are tons of good reasons for that too but it's too bad for Hungary's "return to glory days" concept. Oh well, good to know!

 

[Vlad123]

Thank you both for your thoughtful posts, I wondered if this was the case. I guess my hope was that since I was fighting for cores the manpower in the field might be spared. I'm used to experiencing nearly-full manpower jumps from unifying cores in the past, but you're saying that's only because usually manpower in the field is nowhere near available manpower.

In that sense, the developers are nerfing Hungary unintentionally by putting as many men (or more) in the field than Austria and Czech manpower can initially support. There are tons of good reasons for that too but it's too bad for Hungary's "return to glory days" concept. Oh well, good to know!

This happens when you expand the game to states that were not originally intended (Hungary in this case) but leaves the mechanics unchanged and this creates unintended bugs. I believe that Austria and CZE should almost always agree to join forces to avoid this.