Is there a reason why Emperors can't have King-tier theocracy/republic vassals?

[CosmicDwarf]

I understand that vassal republics and theocracies needed to be nerfed, I don't want to really argue that point (it's been argued to death) - my only question was regarding the King-tier vassals. Why is it that we cannot give a Kingdom title to a Theocracy, to create something like the Papacy or the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

Given that we can have vassal duke-level theocracies and republics, it's not like the size of the vassal would be that much of a concern; it's possible to create a single-province theocracy (as I often do) then transfer vassalage of lots of counties directly to them, thereby allowing you to create enormous vassal realms under a Duke-level liege. Paradox know this, surely, so why is it such a problem? I felt like it would be fun to create a Serene Republic of Greece or Anatolia as a vassal of the ERE for instance - or who knows, maybe the Cathar Queen-Bishop of Aquitaine. Unfortunately all of this is completely impossible due to the strange limits.

 

[Mackus]

It was nerfed because of being OP. Theocracies are quite convenient vassals. Catholic Empire with Free Investiture and Elective Monarchy plus vassal theocratic kingdom was just way too powerful and stable combination. No only bishops rarely rebel or join factions, they cannot be elected to feudal title, with investiture you can ensure they have right (content, humble, etc...) successors, and you get so many opinion bonuses, that they'd offset "vassal king" penalty and left some to spare.

 

[CosmicDwarf]

It was nerfed because of being OP. Theocracies are quite convenient vassals. Catholic Empire with Free Investiture and Elective Monarchy plus vassal theocratic kingdom was just way too powerful and stable combination. No only bishops rarely rebel or join factions, they cannot be elected to feudal title, with investiture you can ensure they have right (content, humble, etc...) successors, and you get so many opinion bonuses, that they'd offset "vassal king" penalty and left some to spare.

Thank you for clarifying that, I understand now that Theocracies may be too OP, without maybe nerfing Theocracy vassals in a less gamey way like an arbitrary limit but that's been done to death. What about King-level Republics, though? Serene Republics?

 

[NewbieOne]

Thank you for clarifying that, I understand now that Theocracies may be too OP, without maybe nerfing Theocracy vassals in a less gamey way like an arbitrary limit but that's been done to death. What about King-level Republics, though? Serene Republics?

Perhaps also nerfed for balancing reasons.

 

[TurtleShroom]

This problem has bothered me for a long time, too. I just use cheat codes to make it happen now.

 

[LumberKing]

This problem has bothered me for a long time, too. I just use cheat codes to make it happen now.

Same.

 

[Incompetent]

You can still have a vassal pope by installing your anti-pope, though - that strikes me as more OP than most of the things you could do with vassal king-level theocracies.

Is it even possible for a king-tier theocracy to exist, other than the Papacy?

 

[Hunteromega]

You can still have a vassal pope by installing your anti-pope, though - that strikes me as more OP than most of the things you could do with vassal king-level theocracies.

Is it even possible for a king-tier theocracy to exist, other than the Papacy?

I'm pretty sure I've invited a claimant or just had one show up at my court, landed him with a bishopric and pressed his claim before.

 

[Rambo Panda]

You can still have a vassal pope by installing your anti-pope, though - that strikes me as more OP than most of the things you could do with vassal king-level theocracies.

Is it even possible for a king-tier theocracy to exist, other than the Papacy?

It is possible and is quite terrible for anyone under them. I was a vassal under a king where a bishop's claim was pressed, making my liege a king-bishop. You can't form factions against them, they jack crown authority way up and there's nothing you can do to stop it aside from declaring independence. I even tried to get someone whose claim I could press and turn it back into a feudal title but that didn't work out for me either (I don't remember exactly why).

 

[CosmicDwarf]

So if we really wanted to make something like a Serene Merchant Republic, we just need to have a mayor with a claim that can be pressed?

 

[Rambo Panda]

So if we really wanted to make something like a Serene Merchant Republic, we just need to have a mayor with a claim that can be pressed?

Invite someone with a claim to your court, grant them a town or bishopric, press the claim. That's what happened in my case.

 

[balmung60]

You can still have a vassal pope by installing your anti-pope, though - that strikes me as more OP than most of the things you could do with vassal king-level theocracies.

Is it even possible for a king-tier theocracy to exist, other than the Papacy?

Sure, outside of other ways (claim-pushing and such), the Ecumenical Patriarchy is also a king-level theocractic title.

So if we really wanted to make something like a Serene Merchant Republic, we just need to have a mayor with a claim that can be pressed?

Outside of claim pushing, make a vassal Venice merchant republic - any Venetian duke-level republic may elevate the title to the Serene Republic of Venice with enough cash and piety and the island of Venice.

Also, if you give either enough land at the ducal level to form another duchy and a kingdom (for example, all of de jure Leon), they should be able to form the kingdom and elevate themselves to King-Bishophoic or Serene Republic.

 

[Incompetent]

It is possible and is quite terrible for anyone under them. I was a vassal under a king where a bishop's claim was pressed, making my liege a king-bishop. You can't form factions against them, they jack crown authority way up and there's nothing you can do to stop it aside from declaring independence. I even tried to get someone whose claim I could press and turn it back into a feudal title but that didn't work out for me either (I don't remember exactly why).

That's horrifying. It really shouldn't be possible to push bishops' claims on feudal titles (unless it's a formerly theocratic title that they lost to revocation). On a related note, it should be possible for unlanded highborn characters to refuse to become bishops/mayors (depending on their ambitions/inheritance prospects), unless they are forced to take holy orders as a punishment.

I forgot about the Ecumenical Patriarch - he's only a titular king, thankfully, but I suppose this could change over the course of a game.

 

[Carmilla]

Perhaps also nerfed for balancing reasons.

Balanced after multiplayer IIRC.

 

[Tuerai]

Balanced after multiplayer IIRC.

Balancing CK2 for multiplayer is the bane of my existence.

I'm just waiting for them to cap the game at speed 3 to give single player and multiplayer a more homogenous experience. And remove the broken and overused "pausing the game" exploit.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Balanced after multiplayer IIRC.

 

[Carmilla]

Yeah it sucks when a game thats mostly played as singleplayer ends up being screwed over by multiplayer, but that's what Paradox seems intent on doing for whatever reasons. So expect more stuff like the topic to happen alongside vassal limits, 10% limits and other such things.

 

[LostTribeMember]

I just carefully use the console to grant titles to those whom I wish to have them.

 

[JRHaggs]

I have a stupid dream of having all of the all-coastal kingdoms as republics. But I also have a dream of never using the console. Tragedy.

But c'mon, Denmark, Brittany, Galicia, Sicily, and Venice (am I missing any?)? All as serene republics? The republic trade zone map view would be so pretty.

Dreams, as they so often are, dashed.

 

[Lysistrata]

I have a stupid dream of having all of the all-coastal kingdoms as republics. But I also have a dream of never using the console. Tragedy.

But c'mon, Denmark, Brittany, Galicia, Sicily, and Venice (am I missing any?)? All as serene republics? The republic trade zone map view would be so pretty.

Dreams, as they so often are, dashed.

You forgot Taurica, Greece, Croatia and Africa. Granted, I just realised you said all-coastal, but all of them have coastal capitals.