-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I think a modern day scenario would require units smaller than divisions to be represented for it to work.
Consider the current US Army. Strength is approximately 1 Million personnel including the National Guard and Army Reserve. Now this translates into 10 Regular Divisions (plus a few other independent units), a Division's worth of combat units in the Reserve and approximately 8 Division's worth of combat units in the National Guard (I am ignoring the recent move to BCT's for illustration purposes).
In WWII the US fielded approximately 100 Army Divisions - which gives us a lot to play with on the map
but now imagine having 18 or so to play with as the US on the HOI2 map - they look kinda lonely don't they? - now imagine that over 10,000 provinces.
One way round it might be to have single brigades - but even allowing for that I don't think the HOI3 engine would be suitable for an MDS produced by Paradox - a MOD yes - if the MDS team want to recreate their feat (which I love btw) thats up to them.
Consider the current US Army. Strength is approximately 1 Million personnel including the National Guard and Army Reserve. Now this translates into 10 Regular Divisions (plus a few other independent units), a Division's worth of combat units in the Reserve and approximately 8 Division's worth of combat units in the National Guard (I am ignoring the recent move to BCT's for illustration purposes).
In WWII the US fielded approximately 100 Army Divisions - which gives us a lot to play with on the map
but now imagine having 18 or so to play with as the US on the HOI2 map - they look kinda lonely don't they? - now imagine that over 10,000 provinces.One way round it might be to have single brigades - but even allowing for that I don't think the HOI3 engine would be suitable for an MDS produced by Paradox - a MOD yes - if the MDS team want to recreate their feat (which I love btw) thats up to them.
The biggest issues with a Cold War game (MDS seems out of the question and rightfully so) is indeed controversy. When you start HOI2 and look at Afghanistan, see that HoS minister? Muhammed Zahir Shah? Well, he was still alive up until 2007 IRL. Virtually everyone in HOI2 had died pre-HOI2 being made. If we were to start in the 60's we'd have people who were born in the 20's, 30's, and 40's serving as minister leaders, and plenty of people from those decades are alive. Not to mention moving into the 70's and 80's.
Does anyone recall seeing the National Socialist minister Kenneth Althaus in the USA cabinet in HOI2? Well turns out Althaus, an obscure figure IRL, was not a National Socialist (or Fascist) at all! His grandson got offended but later on learned what the intent was (Paradox needed more Nazis for the USA apparently) so someone who could qualify as Social Conservative instead got branded a Nazi, which... is pretty bad publicity wise. Now just imagine if that same someone was still alive and was alerted to the game. Just imagine if that person wasn't quite as obscure as one would think, mainly in, say, Ghana or so.
So I assume ministers would not exist in such a game.
Furthermore it'd have to be its own distinct game, more like Victoria than HOI2 but still very distinct because Victoria was more economic than political. In a Cold War game it needs to be political first, economic second, and military third.
Does anyone recall seeing the National Socialist minister Kenneth Althaus in the USA cabinet in HOI2? Well turns out Althaus, an obscure figure IRL, was not a National Socialist (or Fascist) at all! His grandson got offended but later on learned what the intent was (Paradox needed more Nazis for the USA apparently) so someone who could qualify as Social Conservative instead got branded a Nazi, which... is pretty bad publicity wise. Now just imagine if that same someone was still alive and was alerted to the game. Just imagine if that person wasn't quite as obscure as one would think, mainly in, say, Ghana or so.
So I assume ministers would not exist in such a game.
Furthermore it'd have to be its own distinct game, more like Victoria than HOI2 but still very distinct because Victoria was more economic than political. In a Cold War game it needs to be political first, economic second, and military third.
I think with the number of conflicts recently, as well as movies of recent conflicts, etc... there is significant interest in modern warfare. Look at Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. That has to be the best first person shooter game that I have ever played! It's so good! So yeah... I'd say there are calls for a MDS, though I think perhaps the community could do such a thing from HoI3 relatively easily.
While a Cold War game, if done properly, could be a very interesting global chess match, the problem is that it would be just that. There would be only two notable participants, which in turn wouldn't leave as much replay value as Paradox games usually have. Of course I'd still rush to buy it.
Fortunately there's still Twilight Struggle. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/12333
Fortunately there's still Twilight Struggle. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/12333
But notice how CoD 4's focus was more on small tactical warfare than huge battles. Those kinds of scenarios are not really appropriate subject matter for a grand strategy game
Very good point! If Paradox were to pursue a MDS it would likely involve a very high level of micromanagement in these small tactical battles - something which I'm not sure they wish to create.
Though I'm probably the least neutral voice on this, I just want to say that many of the controversies raised here are assuming that a modern era game is similar to the HoI series.
If they make an modern era game, I would assume that it is very similar to Victoria; little military oriented, with complex economic and political aspects. It would also require a far more detailed and complex diplomatic system than present in any paradox game to this date. Wars would be small and uneven, but could escalate as the west, who very much control the world today, falls behind the developing Asia.
I would also assume that it covers a longer time-period than HoI, due to the lack of wars; perhaps 2000-2050, and thus only have political parties, not ministers. Nuclear weapons are in, but mainly as a deterrent. Territorial expansion would be almost impossible due to insurgents, and the efforts to subdue a territory would negatively impact the economy in such a way that it would not pay off. Neither should there be any scripted wars and historical events, which Victoria manages (almost) to do without.
And even if Paradox does not release such an game, they seem, from the information available, to be providing us with an excellent base to mod an short version of it in HoI3.
If they make an modern era game, I would assume that it is very similar to Victoria; little military oriented, with complex economic and political aspects. It would also require a far more detailed and complex diplomatic system than present in any paradox game to this date. Wars would be small and uneven, but could escalate as the west, who very much control the world today, falls behind the developing Asia.
I would also assume that it covers a longer time-period than HoI, due to the lack of wars; perhaps 2000-2050, and thus only have political parties, not ministers. Nuclear weapons are in, but mainly as a deterrent. Territorial expansion would be almost impossible due to insurgents, and the efforts to subdue a territory would negatively impact the economy in such a way that it would not pay off. Neither should there be any scripted wars and historical events, which Victoria manages (almost) to do without.
And even if Paradox does not release such an game, they seem, from the information available, to be providing us with an excellent base to mod an short version of it in HoI3.
Last edited:
MDS game would have to be something like HoI2+Vicky, with even more advanced economics system.
However I'd like to see a game (HoI style) about Cold War (40's-70's maybe?) or Interbellum. We all know that this period wasn't interesting at all in Vicky.
However I'd like to see a game (HoI style) about Cold War (40's-70's maybe?) or Interbellum. We all know that this period wasn't interesting at all in Vicky.
Want to play a MDS? just play Supreme Ruler 2020... and you will understand the complexity of our modern societies.... I've played it an i didn't enjoyed as i enjoyed HOI.... first ou have all ne Nato's, UN policies, all the alliances and others pacts.... You have all this huge national deficit/debts, for any countries.... No, what it should be fine, it's a scenario that begin a lit earlier... Word war I? why not, or 1930 when the problems begin... and maybe make it t'ill the 60's, 1960, the Gap affair, the U2 affair begin, first ICBM, The Cuban problem.... etc.... Spoutnik 1957... So maybe a period of 30 years will be great... From 1930 to 1960... Sould be fun
Armageddon took HoI2 to 1960-something as I recall (not played HoI2 for ages, and I don't know exactly how well it did it) and it's likely that HoI3 will have one or more expansions that extend the timeline as well.
Not very well. Tech tree wasn't expanded and all the new events were for elections. Extending timeline to 60's was just more playtime without any new content.
The biggest problem about a modern world scenario is the implementation of the post WW2 concepts and structures. The biggest problem is that war which is the main point of HOI or most other paradox games is strictly spoken outlawed by the international community. What we basically saw for decades are either low intensity cold wars between states, local interventions by a superpower, civil wars and smaller regional conflicts. To make the game somewhat accurate youd have to have a tremendous amount of limitating factors starting from internal political unwillingness to support wars in open societies to the pressures applied by various regional and global actors that influence wars of other nations or try to end them through diplomatic means. It too needs a very fleshed out international public and community that starts to react to your or the AIs actions. Annexing or demanding border concessions should hardly be possible within the scope of a MDS.
Therefore the aim and goals and concept of a modern day game would be others. War is a possibility but could not be the center of such a game.
Therefore the aim and goals and concept of a modern day game would be others. War is a possibility but could not be the center of such a game.
Personally I would like a cold war goes hot scenario. I can't beleieve there aren't more CW games out there considering how interestign it could be. The only one I can thing of is World at War which was great. I'd like to see a 1955-1990 scenario where every international crisis has a small chance of having a war breaking loose (of course the player will be able to declare war when he wants to as well).
Don't get me wrong I like WWII games, but how many WWII strategy and shooter games are there? hundreds at least. Storming the reichtag for the 11th time isn't as fun as the first...
Don't get me wrong I like WWII games, but how many WWII strategy and shooter games are there? hundreds at least. Storming the reichtag for the 11th time isn't as fun as the first...
Is it just me or am I the only one here who doesn't care about Controversy? It's not like I don't have any decency but ignoring our past is dumb, as well as our possible future. I guess Paradox does have to cover thier butt legal wise just to be honest the Doomsday scenario was one of the funnest I played.
A Modern Day Scenario I would like because of the fact that warfare has changed alot it would be interesting to play a WWII scenario only to find, like real leaders that the same tactics developed in WWII are no longer viable.
Whatever, I love WWII and I see people's point on Grand Strategy and all just I seriously hope then that the guys over at MDS mod for the current Hearts of Iron II carry over, since that was a fun mod as well.
A Modern Day Scenario I would like because of the fact that warfare has changed alot it would be interesting to play a WWII scenario only to find, like real leaders that the same tactics developed in WWII are no longer viable.
Whatever, I love WWII and I see people's point on Grand Strategy and all just I seriously hope then that the guys over at MDS mod for the current Hearts of Iron II carry over, since that was a fun mod as well.
Battlefront went modern day with their combat mission series. It's when I stepped out, much to my dismay. Modern day is too politically laden, it's too complex, too close to home but also especially way too boring.
Obviously sounds like are talking about the boardgame/wargame, Twilight Struggle. One of my favorite games ever designed.
Here is a good review about the game.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/225686
I like these games set a bit more back in history rather than modern times- they leave a lot of room for alternate history and different strategies.
A game that extended more into modern times could be pretty interesting, if Paradox were willing to go more into alternate history. They've ventured into this scenario before with the HOI2 scenarios. It would need a bit of stretching to make nuclear armageddon unlikely enough to keep the game interesting though, and it'd get harder the closer it got to modern times. I could see a game like this extending to the 70's or 80's.