Is there a reason not to have retinues?

[Six-Monts]

Ok, i'm probably missing something here, but I feel like the retinues are free maintenance army. Ok, i have to buy them, and then wait until they reach full number, and pay while they reinforce. But then they are free no? Isn't it just too powerful? Like having 100 retinues and then declaring war to someone I couldn't defeat with just levies?

 

[Kamuflaro]

That's exactly what everyone does. Speaking for myself only ofc You can even declare war with raised mercs giving you an extra boost to defeat your enemies' troops while they stack up. The byz var guard is very cheap so I always have them standing.
But reinforcing 100 retinues is expensive and they all get hurt a little during a siege...

 

[Velorian]

Aside from the cost of hiring them and the occasional reinforcement there are really no downsides to them. Without maintenance I think they are rather overpowered, and ahistorically numerous.

 

[name_here]

Once they get damaged, they cost like you wouldn't believe. In any combat, you'll probably lose a couple guys from each and every retinue. I built up an army of forty-plus retinues, and when they got dented I was paying 100 gold a month in their maintenance.

That being said, you should probably make heavy use of them. Just remember that you will eventually be stuck with quite a large bill for them.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Seems like they are poorly integrated with the rest of the game, however.

First of all, I think that if retinues represent professional armies, then maintenance cannot be free. A professional army in this period is basically a standing force of mercenaries, and if they don't get paid, they should stage a coup.

Also, your vassals shouldn't be totally chill with you prancing about with a 100k strong standing army that could wipe them off the map in a day - if you engage in a break-neck military build-up, your vassals should freak out and depose you.

EDIT: Actually, Rome handled this part fantastically. If you had a general in permanent command of an army, the troops would become loyal to HIM...with all sorts of fun consequences. Not exactly the same, but in a similar spirit to what I'm suggesting. Standing armies pose inherent dangers to their own government in any day and age.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

These are no "free maintenance" armies. The free is only when you're not using them. They cost like crazy to reinforce. You'll think twice every time you hit that assault button when you've got retinue troops.

In fact, with retinues I find that I never have enough money now. You used to be able to get so rich you had nothing to spend it on. No longer. In a big empire, with 100k of retinue troops to reinforce, you basically have to tax nobles and do other things for money you would never ever do before.

Retinues are great. It's a great improvement to the game. But no, they are not free. And there is a huge downside to them -- they cost like hell.

 

[Comradebot]

Yup, no real downside... they're just part of the game now, and not having them is just gimping yourself. And while they can "cost like hell", if you're strapped for cash you can just turn off their reinforcement for a bit.

 

[Alexander Seil]

These are no "free maintenance" armies. The free is only when you're not using them. They cost like crazy to reinforce. You'll think twice every time you hit that assault button when you've got retinue troops.

In fact, with retinues I find that I never have enough money now. You used to be able to get so rich you had nothing to spend it on. No longer. In a big empire, with 100k of retinue troops to reinforce, you basically have to tax nobles and do other things for money you would never ever do before.

Retinues are great. It's a great improvement to the game. But no, they are not free. And there is a huge downside to them -- they cost like hell.

Fine, but that doesn't seem like a well-thought out feature in a game where practically everything feeds into politics and/or interpersonal relationships. There should be a political cost to raising huge standing armies in peacetime. This isn't 1939.

 

[yodaime]

Actually, I noticed that the Tech that's responsible for retinues, increases retinues by 10% and decreases levies by 10%. Anybody got an idea how it actually work? Is it in effect all the time or only if you actually have retinues?

 

[Casiru]

Its all the time, you can check by hovering over the amount of troops you get from an individual holding. Its pretty silly to have like 4000 heavy cavalry just sitting around waiting for you to declare war without a penny in upkeep, I was expecting them to be relatively expensive.

 

[Velorian]

Fine, but that doesn't seem like a well-thought out feature in a game where practically everything feeds into politics and/or interpersonal relationships. There should be a political cost to raising huge standing armies in peacetime. This isn't 1939.

On that note, does anyone know how to mod them to be far fewer in numbers or perhaps disabled entirely?

 

[unmerged(600321)]

Its all the time, you can check by hovering over the amount of troops you get from an individual holding. Its pretty silly to have like 4000 heavy cavalry just sitting around waiting for you to declare war without a penny in upkeep, I was expecting them to be relatively expensive.

Try having 50k cavalry (the 300/200 mix of heavy/light) up and running right around when the Aztec hit you in the new DLC. That, along with some basic levies basically crushes almost anything you face in the game. Retinues, especially heavy cavalry based retinues, are extremely overpowered. You have to be careful though as the maintenance cost when you are losing them in fights can bankrupt you.

Based on my experience, retinues are very useful after around 1200. Right around when you have a strong enough economy to afford to reinforce them in fights. And a 20k stack of retinue cavalry is crazy good. It can take out most 30k+ stacks fairly easily. The stronger units are a must when dealing with unit attrition in larger battles.

 

[NewbieOne]

Question: do retinues get any bonuses compared to levies of the same unit type?

 

[Comm Cody]

Only the cultural retinues.

 

[NewbieOne]

Only the cultural retinues.

Thanks. I've been mostly away from the game the last months.

 

[stranger0]

The power of retinues increases as the technology level rises and as your realm keeps getting bigger. More technology + bigger realm = more retinues.
After a point vassal levies become unimportant, as you should be able to defeat most enemies with just your retinues. After you pass that point you can lower feudal levies laws to the minimum, decrease crown authority to as much as you're comfortable with, though I wouldn't go with autonomous vassals, and raise the feudal tax to the max. Because all you will need will be money to build and reinforce retinues. Use your surplus money to spawn cities everywhere.

Also, not all retinues are equal. The kataphract retinues of the Byzantine Empire for example are immensely powerful, as they combine horse archers with heavy cavalry and are able to routinely crush much larger armies. All you need is some 12k kataphract retinues, which is a number good enough for avoiding attrition and you can spread your glory from Ireland to Cathay, or so to speak.

 

[monsterfurby]

To be honest, I don't think retinues are broken as an idea, they just need to be tied to the rest of the gameplay mechanics much better.

For example: have the marshal also become your retinue captain by default and the retinues develop loyalty to him. This way, the marshal becomes a critical player similar to the spymaster - when he revolts, he takes the retinue with him. Keep him happy and the retinue is as strong as ever, but annoy him and things go belly up in no time.
That would be a decent balancing mechanism imho.

 

[Lessing]

I use retinues and vassal armies alternating, depending on how big the opinion penalty is on my vassals for having used their levy beforehand. Retinues are great to siege stuff and keep sieging. No opinion penalty, no cost (unless you get a stupid siege event and lose a few men).

 

[The_Blind_One]

Retinues are your elite shock troops.

Levies are your assault and crap troops.

The only big problem I have with retinues is that the mechanics are to static at the moment and the retinue cap is waaay to high to be even historicaly correct.

Plus, you should be able to hire merc companies as your retinues and suffer the consequences of not paying them properly and on time not to mention the fun of having merc companies going beserk all over the map.

 

[Mutineer]

In big empires, you can keep retinues home, never send them out. What is does is increase your power, making vassals hurder to revolt(factons) and cost you nothing. Trow in wars you levies.