Is There a Mod to Improve Catholic History in CKII?

[zijistark]

"legal and ontological distinctions" are irrelevant. CK 2 only deals with religion in terms of its political importance. The political divide between what we now call Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox centers around the Bishop of Rome (The Catholic Pope) claiming temporal authority over all Christendom. That began some 200 years before the first starting date. Christmas day 800 AD is when that split truly became irreversible with the Bishop of Rome crowning a Frankish warlord as Western Roman Emperor. So by 867 AD the die is well and truly cast.

^

This is 100% of the reason that I won't implement Chalcedonian as a united religion in EMF. If EMF were way more focused upon its vanilla map option, then the 769/CM bookmark would likely warrant unification and a dynamic schism, but it is definitely a shit-load of work for a map option for EMF that I can barely support as it is (since I don't play w/o SWMH) and is much less commonly used than EMF+SWMH.

EDIT: Note that when I say "SWMH," these days in terms of my own personal play, I'm referring to miniSWMH. [Unrelated to my point, but I figured that I ought to specify since I don't talk a lot about actually playing CK2.]

 

[vyshan]

@zijistark what do you think of repersenting the different rites in Catholicism, via say a new religious law?

 

[eliphas8]

I think that the christian heresies in general need an expansion. They lack real distinctions from each other for the most part and that there's no real difference between Lollardy and Waldensianism is really annoying in the game.

 

[Zylathas]

I think that the christian heresies in general need an expansion. They lack real distinctions from each other for the most part and that there's no real difference between Lollardy and Waldensianism is really annoying in the game.

I feel like religion is the most boring part of HIP right now, but on the previous page they have said it's no priority as of yet. So I'll live with that statement.

 

[zijistark]

@zijistark what do you think of repersenting the different rites in Catholicism, via say a new religious law?

In my view, the sphere of laws and the sphere of flavor regarding religious rites do not intersect. [Unless somebody can show me a mechanical reason for ahistorically adopting different rites, so really it's the fact that it's purely flavor that makes it unsuitable for laws.]

If somebody were to do such a thing as flavor, they should focus on using traits to represent the rites and an event/decision-driven system to implement that flavor.

It's possible it could be a demesne law, though, sure-- useful I suppose if one really wanted to ensure that all the simulated vassals' worship in the game were aligned with their culturally-ahistorical rites (if ahistorical rites weren't an option, then the laws wouldn't need to be changed at all and thus ought not be laws).

 

[eliphas8]

I feel like religion is the most boring part of HIP right now, but on the previous page they have said it's no priority as of yet. So I'll live with that statement.

Which I get, they've got bigger fish to fry with the new mechanics in Conclave. I just think it would be a worthwhile change. CK2 Plus has been doing something or another I don't totally get with heresies, so maybe that could just be incorporated in. (for example, Cathars a handful of new decisions and a mechanic where they can adopt their heirs and take a trait that dramatically reduces fertility but gives bonuses to piety and stuff).

 

[vyshan]

In my view, the sphere of laws and the sphere of flavor regarding religious rites do not intersect. [Unless somebody can show me a mechanical reason for ahistorically adopting different rites, so really it's the fact that it's purely flavor that makes it unsuitable for laws.]

If somebody were to do such a thing as flavor, they should focus on using traits to represent the rites and an event/decision-driven system to implement that flavor.

It's possible it could be a demesne law, though, sure-- useful I suppose if one really wanted to ensure that all the simulated vassals' worship in the game were aligned with their culturally-ahistorical rites (if ahistorical rites weren't an option, then the laws wouldn't need to be changed at all and thus ought not be laws).

Why do you say ahistorical btw I am just curious what you are refering to here.

also some countries did change rites in this period, such as Venice switching back and forth from the Aquileian rite and the Latin rite.

Which I get, they've got bigger fish to fry with the new mechanics in Conclave. I just think it would be a worthwhile change. CK2 Plus has been doing something or another I don't totally get with heresies, so maybe that could just be incorporated in. (for example, Cathars a handful of new decisions and a mechanic where they can adopt their heirs and take a trait that dramatically reduces fertility but gives bonuses to piety and stuff).

Yea, religion is one of the big things that I think should be improved in HIP. While I wait for the combatility update I might take a look at practicing my modding by trying to add flavor to the different religions.

 

[dylanfellows]

I just notice that in my most recent HIP play through, (England, now year 1010) there have not yet been any papal names that couldn't (possibly or unlikely) exist. I figure a few dozen popes and a century and a half into the game, they'd show up by now. So maybe this is only an issue in vanilla.

 

[zijistark]

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what the complaint about the papal names actually is. @IoannesBarbarus already refactored the SWMH papal names to not contain any anachronistic names for the era and gave them appropriate frequency weights according to their reusage by Popes over the timeline.

 

[IoannesBarbarus]

it's frustrating to see a pope elected who already reigned, or see a pope elected with a name they couldn't possibly have (e.g., Ioannes XXVI in 945).

It’s very unclear what you’re saying here. How are popes reigning twice? Why is it there couldn’t possibly be a John XXVI in 945? Why are you seeing John XXVI? I’m assuming there have been a full complement of popes named John at lower numbers, otherwise, this is an engine bug which I’ve never seen.

Speaking of Ioannes, it would be cool if the papal name displayed to the player reflected his culture/language (similar to territory names). Anglo Saxons wouldn't submit to Pope Ioannes, they'd submit to Pope John.

No titles in the game work this way, and CK2 doesn’t allow them to be modded to work this way. That said, sure the Anglo-Saxons would submit to “Papa nostro Ioannes”—at least in their liturgies.

I just notice that in my most recent HIP play through, (England, now year 1010) there have not yet been any papal names that couldn't (possibly or unlikely) exist. I figure a few dozen popes and a century and a half into the game, they'd show up by now. So maybe this is only an issue in vanilla.

Papal names were anachronistic (and Anglicized) in vanilla until 2.4. Since then, they have been timeline-appropriate just like SWMH. SWMH includes rarer names and weights names appropriately, but vanilla does neither. So in vanilla, Eugene is just as common as John.