Is the political map of 1399 correct?

[Autonomous]

Actually India is done decently well in the south, just when you get further north it devolves into complete randomness.

Egads, India. No Thar desert. Mountains are- alright, kinda, if you squint and pretend real hard; the Eastern Ghats are probably the worst (actually, the only place on the east coast with hills is the bit where the Ghats run inland. Well alright, bro), and where are the Vindhyas? The Yamuna-Ganges Doab has only one ab, and Delhi has migrated into the Himalayas. Vijayanagara is on the east coast (the country's capital has been moved to the more reasonable Bangalore, but no one thought to change the city names); as far as I can tell it should be inside the game's province of Raichur Doab. It also has only five thousand inhabitants. Speaking of the Raichur Doab, Vijayanagara should probably have a core on that. Malwa (the state) is probably too small; it was for a while a rival of the Bahmanis and Gujarat. Most of Bihar should be the sultanate of Jaunpur; the rest Bengal. Rajputna should be a bunch of tiny minors; amalgamating them is sensible from a tag-conservation point of view, though I shudder to think how a large, hindu nation in the northwest is throwing off balance.

And of course there are far too few provinces and far too little manpower, but what else is new in the east.

Don't get me started on India...

EDIT: You know, when I voted for a ROTW expansion, I was hoping that adding provinces to and generally rebalancing East Asia would be the basic feature and anything else would be squeezed in around the edges.

;__;

 

[Arizal]

If Nogai and Kazakh were split even by GH and Timurids we could set up one of the grandest war of that era. As it is now GH and Timurids rarely fight each other, but with such a long border, coupled with some war missions, they are bound to start one epic war. Incidentally, this could in one stroke solve the balance problem with the hordes as well as ensure a historically plausible deterioration of the great hordes.

There are several benefits. With an even larger GH they are actually weakened, especially if nogai and kazakh keep their cores. Also, their focus would be turned towards Timurids and away from expanding in eastern europe. In the same way, Timurids would turn their focus away from the ottomans and towards GH. And while the great hordes are fighting a historically correct and thrilling blood bath on the steppes, their neighbours can move ahead techwise. Since GH probably wouldn't expand much in eastern europe they would not encounter austria and bohemia and their likes. Then it would be Poland, Lithuania and Russia that would be well placed to settle the steppe. And most importantly, it would be so much fun to play GH or Timurids.

What a great idea. Combine that with a longuest time to conquer provinces (and we could also switch the Horde conquer-conquerred to a tool which could resemble to the ones currently for religion (the hordes propably didn't control this part of the countries they conquered)? Anyway, the hordes has to be balance, and I for one think it is a good concept, since this was very far from a modern state.

 

[JuniorD]

Devleti Ali Osmanli Lite fixes most of your complaints. You should talk with the owner of the mod to see if you could make a mod modeled after his map

The DAO Map is simply stunning.

 

[IconOfEvi]

That reminds me of an idea...why doesn't Paradox perhaps solicit best map for inclusion in the next patch?

 

[Confucius Rex]

My only big problems with the map are Trinidad and Curaçao. I just can't unnotice their wrongness. But I suppose this is more for another thread.

 

[17blue17]

That reminds me of an idea...why doesn't Paradox perhaps solicit best map for inclusion in the next patch?

While I understand and support you in theory - I would not like to see this happen in practice. When Paradox changed the map from HTT to DW they did not just change the look - instead they replaced the games entire brain relating to the map. And it has taken seven full months to get most of the bugs out so we can change the map in a mod without having to over write the main game.

If they would just add or change the shapes of some provinces - then yes. Other wise take a look at some mods like the Terra Nova mod where I redid India and made things make more sense. And then there is the MEIOU map to consider and the WWM is being updated for DW.

Also the big issue - you are never going to please everyone with one map. There have been some interesting long and complex map suggestion discussions over the years in the WWM threads as well as for MEIOU. And usually six months or a year later someone suggests completely changing an entire area that was just redone. :rofl:

And once you change the map then you have to change all the province history files and add or remove TAGs because what maybe made sense before no longer works. This in turn creates bugs and CTD's.

So for simple things like the correct location for the VIJ capital - open a bug report (I think I have seen such reports in the past and for some reason they never get done - or maybe the DW upgrade put them back to their wrong locations?

EDIT: also more TAGs and more provinces can slow the game way down - so a complex and detailed map would not be recommended for a basic low end computer running DW and Paradox has to keep this in mind for the games default map.

 

[Dafool]

While I understand and support you in theory - I would not like to see this happen in practice. When Paradox changed the map from HTT to DW they did not just change the look - instead they replaced the games entire brain relating to the map. And it has taken seven full months to get most of the bugs out so we can change the map in a mod without having to over write the main game.

If they would just add or change the shapes of some provinces - then yes. Other wise take a look at some mods like the Terra Nova mod where I redid India and made things make more sense. And then there is the MEIOU map to consider and the WWM is being updated for DW.

Also the big issue - you are never going to please everyone with one map. There have been some interesting long and complex map suggestion discussions over the years in the WWM threads as well as for MEIOU. And usually six months or a year later someone suggests completely changing an entire area that was just redone. :rofl:

And once you change the map then you have to change all the province history files and add or remove TAGs because what maybe made sense before no longer works. This in turn creates bugs and CTD's.

So for simple things like the correct location for the VIJ capital - open a bug report (I think I have seen such reports in the past and for some reason they never get done - or maybe the DW upgrade put them back to their wrong locations?

EDIT: also more TAGs and more provinces can slow the game way down - so a complex and detailed map would not be recommended for a basic low end computer running DW and Paradox has to keep this in mind for the games default map.

Well, DAO is actually spot on for most of Europe and the Middle East. It's based in large on Vic2's map, but there's a lot of other changes as well. Personally I think it's hard to argue that anything is wrong with a map that can more or less reflect most of what needs to be displayed. There will always be someone saying "Hey, Province X, which I happen to live in, is slightly misshapen and needs to be fixed", but that's going to happen so long as we have "psuedo-experts" nitpicking. Also, provinces and tags don't substantially change the speed of the game. That "fact" got highly overblown at one point and spread like wildfire. You'd have to add hundreds of tags to make a difference for most people. Only the computers who already can barely run EU3 would really feel the hit there.

 

[Taylor]

If Nogai and Kazakh were split even by GH and Timurids we could set up one of the grandest war of that era. As it is now GH and Timurids rarely fight each other, but with such a long border, coupled with some war missions, they are bound to start one epic war. Incidentally, this could in one stroke solve the balance problem with the hordes as well as ensure a historically plausible deterioration of the great hordes.

There are several benefits. With an even larger GH they are actually weakened, especially if nogai and kazakh keep their cores. Also, their focus would be turned towards Timurids and away from expanding in eastern europe. In the same way, Timurids would turn their focus away from the ottomans and towards GH. And while the great hordes are fighting a historically correct and thrilling blood bath on the steppes, their neighbours can move ahead techwise. Since GH probably wouldn't expand much in eastern europe they would not encounter austria and bohemia and their likes. Then it would be Poland, Lithuania and Russia that would be well placed to settle the steppe. And most importantly, it would be so much fun to play GH or Timurids.

I just want to quote this again, because I strongly agree with it. This could actually fix the issues of GH steamrolling Eastern Europe & Bohemia snaking its way into that later.

Has anyone actually tried splitting Nogai and Kazakh between GH and Timurids? I think I'll try it tonight if I have time .

 

[JCFast]

My only big problems with the map are Trinidad and Curaçao. I just can't unnotice their wrongness. But I suppose this is more for another thread.

I too haven't gotten over this. Shouldn't be so hard to fix this awful oversight.

 

[nOxr]

for the two hordes , i don't think they would declare war on each other if they are busy with the other nations ...

I've been thinking a bit more about this, and perhaps this is the missing link in the horde system: lack of horde infighting. At that time the hordes fought each other more than they fought settled neighbours, unless all hordes acknowledged that one of them were the mightiest. This could easily be implemented in the game by letting the automaic war function include horde neighbours too. At game start weak hordes would pay tributes to stronger hordes and the two great hordes could either start at war with each other or have a peace treaty soon to be expanded.

Edit: A bit off topic I realise, so I move this thought to the beta-thread.

 

[mwallyn]

For gameplay reasons, the Germany area MUST be abridged. After all, there were hundreds of tiny little states and free cities. For example, the Hansa was basically the city of Lubeck-proper, not the whole countryside like the game depicts. For me, its just an acceptable break from reality here. As for places like Georgia and the Hordes, they didn't really have defined borders like Europeans did. Thus, its a lot harder to define what exactly a country looks like. Also, balance. We'd be naive to think the game wasn't changed for balancing purposes...

 

[Taylor]

I just want to quote this again, because I strongly agree with it. This could actually fix the issues of GH steamrolling Eastern Europe & Bohemia snaking its way into that later.

Has anyone actually tried splitting Nogai and Kazakh between GH and Timurids? I think I'll try it tonight if I have time .

I made a little mod removing Nogai and Kazakh at game start. It would be nice if people can run some test games to see whether it does any good .

 

[DanubianCossak]

My Golden Horde really is MEGA:



But with a bit of balancing magic, and mega size of everything else, its not a problem at all.

 

[nOxr]

I made a little mod removing Nogai and Kazakh at game start. It would be nice if people can run some test games to see whether it does any good .

I will give it a test tonight!

 

[unmerged(327529)]

Just wondering, are there any extant mods that attempt to make the 1399 start more historically accurate?

 

[gela1212]

Just wondering, are there any extant mods that attempt to make the 1399 start more historically accurate?

DAO.

You can also look at MEIOU and the soon-to-be-released WWM

 

[Trin Tragula]

Just wondering, are there any extant mods that attempt to make the 1399 start more historically accurate?

I think most of them do. Though they focus in different areas.

 

[HolyOne]

I honestly find it amusing, how patch after patch and expansion after expansion depicts Hungary divided between Hungary "proper" and Transylvania (I think only Magna Mundi got it right so far). Such division might be accurate for the 11-12th century and after 1526, but certainly not for the first cca. 130 years of the game. This is the first thing I always mod in the game after installing it or playing a mod, because it just hurts my eyes.