Is the political map of 1399 correct?

[unmerged(243793)]

Am i the only one kinda weirded out by the thingie between the mountain goats legs in the Coat of Arms of one of the states in the "Three States"?

 

[hecatomb]

As for the reason to leave small, "insignificant" states out of the game because they will just be consumed by the computer, there are two points on that.

Most of them were in the HRE which is specifically why they even existed and stayed around in the first place. The game (now) does a reasonable job of keeping the small states around.

The second is that if an AI or player wanted to take them over, that is not really that big of a deal - it is what happened in a lot of cases. Adding in a few more states to try and make the map more accurate is not really going to change anything since there are already dozens of them already.


If you are really wanting to dig into the missing pieces, there are a number in the Italian area as well - Lucca, Saluzzo, Massa, Montferrat, Spoleto, Perugia, Ancona.

Lippe in the north, Trent a little after 1399 and Carniola later on briefly, Brabant. Tuscany should be Florence to start the game. All of these were big enough to throw on the map if you will be modding it. If not, a couple can go into existing provinces.

 

[lordkestrel]

One rather significant downside to adding in more states is that every additional tag slows the game down a little bit. So adding in a dozen new tags to Europe will make the game even slower for those with computers that are already on the low end.

So if changes can be made to the map that don't add new tags, that would be preferable over ones that require new ones to be created.


And for the Austria/Aquilea debate, I use a rather simple solution: I gave Austria a mission to conquer Istria/Gorz. This gives them the option of taking those provinces, without having them start with them. Austria is already powerful enough without having 1/2 more rather rich provinces at the start. I like that they have to work a little to gain those provinces.

 

[unmerged(288807)]

While it may break the game as we know it, the Golden Horde had recently been turned into a vassal(along with Kazakh and Nogai, which I swore existed at that point) by the Timurid Empire.

Per what i know that didn't happen in 1399 yet. Only 1-2 years after that had Timur reach the capital of golden horde and forced them to his terms. But Kazakh and Nogai really didn't exist prior 1440/1450. Atleast not that i knew of or that it was written anywhere. But if you do have any specific information do share it.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

"Istria" should be Venetian. Venice tends to be slightly underpowered in my experience.

 

[Nordicmonkey]

And technically, most of the Russians were vassals of the Golden Horde. I think the deviation from historical reality makes sense here, since the game generally doesn't model unruly vassals properly.

That would be one hell of an interesting addition though, unruly vassals that is. It would also help in other areas, the Iberian peninsula comes to mind.

 

[anomanderus]

It's as correct as it's going to get. Don't complain.

 

[jamhaw]

It's as correct as it's going to get. Don't complain.

It could always be better.

 

[no7892142]

It's as correct as it's going to get. Don't complain.

Following that logic, PI could've just said EU1.3 is as good as it's going to get. Don't complain.
Kind of meh.

But yeah, I guess there are a lot of mods out there dealing with that issue.

 

[User29]

It's as correct as it's going to get. Don't complain.

it's unfair to call any discussion about historical inaccuarcies "complaining" when really no one here in this thread has reall started to complain too much. There is simply discussion about finer details in Europe and Asia.

As to the "Unruly Vassal" thing, absolutely agree, it should be implemented along with adding an Empire version to all the government types(for that emperor title some had and improved government types they all had)

On the borders within the Holy Roman Empire, there will probably always be room for improvement, and in newer versions of the game, paradox generally makes the HRE crisper and cleaner(God knows how since the borders back then were blotchy and irregular)

As for the rest of the world, frankly, you have to be impressed that there are some guys sitting in an office gathering all this historical and map information just for a video game, applause for them

 

[Sakkura]

I've seen threads full of complaining in this forum, but this definitely is not one of them.

 

[Shackel]

Per what i know that didn't happen in 1399 yet. Only 1-2 years after that had Timur reach the capital of golden horde and forced them to his terms. But Kazakh and Nogai really didn't exist prior 1440/1450. Atleast not that i knew of or that it was written anywhere. But if you do have any specific information do share it.

Ah, I misread. Kazakh and Nogai were part of the Golden Horde, but the GH itself was vassalized by the Timurids.

Interestingly enough, the war GH, Lithuania and Poland start in is the direct aftermath of that war, for Tokhtamysh himself had requested help. Unfortuately, poor Tohk cannot reclaim his throne unless it was an event, and I doubt that would happen.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

I've seen Austria crumble and release Tirol and Styria quite often, whereas Bohemia has taken on the role of Trollemia almost every time. Ottomans, though... They usually suck from a 1399 start (Timurids, GH, I'm looking at you...).

Seen bohemia conquering austria and releasing styria, annexing brandenburg and pommerians in my muscowy/russia game. Also they got warmia and danzig... while poland did not even fought with TO, and got annexed (or inherited im not sure) bulgaria, and inherited hungary, while they bordered byzantium (they took thrace from them LOL). France blobbed as ussualy, but not much into empire, instead they ate aragon, and brittany, also few states in north but i assume they were stopped by : Milan emperors, Polish emperors, Bohemian emperors. I managed to destroy Poland with rebels, and there appeared greece who owned nice COT, in adrianopol. This was made by byzantines or poles, i dunno... whatever it was taken by poland. Now poland own still own one COT, in poznan, and have capital in warsaw, while cracow is down, anyway, If austria does not get those provinces, they ussualy die, because they are too weak, and end eaten by bohemia or hungary. Once saw them eaten by milan...

 

[Checco]

If you are really wanting to dig into the missing pieces, there are a number in the Italian area as well - Lucca, Saluzzo, Massa, Montferrat, Spoleto, Perugia, Ancona.

Lippe in the north, Trent a little after 1399 and Carniola later on briefly, Brabant. Tuscany should be Florence to start the game. All of these were big enough to throw on the map if you will be modding it. If not, a couple can go into existing provinces.

You forget the free city of Bologna (whose history I know pretty well, as you can read the place I'm coming from), free from Pope/Milan until 1506.

Why a city that was ranked 5th European for population in the middle ages (along with Paris and Barcelona) did not receive the treatment other did (like Aachen, Ulm, Frankfurt, Augsburg), I'll never know.

 

[unmerged(288807)]

Ah, I misread. Kazakh and Nogai were part of the Golden Horde, but the GH itself was vassalized by the Timurids.

Interestingly enough, the war GH, Lithuania and Poland start in is the direct aftermath of that war, for Tokhtamysh himself had requested help. Unfortuately, poor Tohk cannot reclaim his throne unless it was an event, and I doubt that would happen.

You sure they were vassals? I have read about the Tokhtamysh–Timur war, but it doesn't seem they got vassalized.

 

[unmerged(288807)]

You forget the free city of Bologna (whose history I know pretty well, as you can read the place I'm coming from), free from Pope/Milan until 1506.

Why a city that was ranked 5th European for population in the middle ages (along with Paris and Barcelona) did not receive the treatment other did (like Aachen, Ulm, Frankfurt, Augsburg), I'll never know.

I agree with you, if we take as an example the city Ancona, it is really a questionable design. Since the province is so big that it cuts the papal state in half. There should be provinces which solely represent those big cities.

 

[Checco]

I agree with you, if we take as an example the city Ancona, it is really a questionable design. Since the province is so big that it cuts the papal state in half. There should be provinces which solely represent those big cities.

I'm happy someone agrees, if there were town/cities that historically had more population than a lot of Asian, African (and as well other European) entire provinces they should be represented.

 

[unmerged(66213)]

The problem of making many of these parts fully independent is that they'll be gobbled up within the first year of the game starting. Having a large number of these smaller entities at the start in a confederation may stretch history somewhat, but would still be a better representation than what we have today.

This is a good map of what parts made up the Swiss confederation if anyone's interested:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Territorial-development-Swiss_Confederacy.png

I second everything you've said in this thread, so far.

To add to it, the parts of Switzerland that were not technically actually Swiss, like the Grisons bit in the map, were not inequivocally governed by anyone in particular. The Bishop of Chur was a buddy of the Habsburgs, sure. But because of pressure from his burghers and peasants, he sided with the Confederates in the Swabian War (1499). All in all, it was a big feudal mess of religious, class, and cultural allegiances that defy our modern notions of territoriality.

 

[Duke of Bavaria]

I cant even play the unmodded game because that strange green thingy totally destroyed Bavaria totally. I am not even totally sure what it is supposed to be, but i guess it should be Augsburg which is so wrong in so many ways, starting from that Augsburg always was and is in western Bavaria or west of Bavaria. If you have to have that ugly green thing in there, either move it west or call it Bishopry of Freising or something ,its still wrong but way less than an Augsburg east of Bavarias main territory.

Map of 1350:

http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_III/Geschichte/w96vsmm6.html

Note that the little pinkish think east of green Bavaria is actually Augsburg, didnt move a bit to the east in the 50 years until the game start nor until today.

The closest thing to the territory represented in the current map would be the, in this map yellow, Enclave of the free imperial county "Reichsgrafschaft Haag". Not saying such a minor county shoudl be in but it actually wasnt much smaller than Augsburg and at least i would be at the right spot. ;-9 No seriously Augsburg needs to be west of Bavaria especially as Bavaria wasnt reaching into Schwaben much at this time.

Also another map of 1378 still has Augsburg southwest of Bavaria. ;-) : Also no stupid huge Ulm which never played a role but the way more important Markgrafschaft Burgau (Austrian) in its place.

http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_III/Geschichte/dtl1378sg.jpg

Also a western Augsburg here: http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_III/Geschichte/1350g.jpg ..and a lovely Bavaria stretchin way into Tyrol. ;-)


Also what always bugs me is The Palatinate owning "Franken", jsut change that province name to Oberpfalz, name the Bavarian Oberpfalz Straubing and the name Niederbayern Landshut and you have an easy and lovely solution.

 

[Mythtern5]

If PI had tried to recreate the political situation of europe in the timeline of EU3, we would have a map with vicky 2 size provinces, with tiny nations/duchys/counties/free cities everywhere. If they did that, they would to massively raise the BB limit, and that would just ruin the game. It would also cause massive performance problems for anyone who doesnt have a decent computer. On a side note, while this isnt exactly 1399, Germany had well over 300 independent 'states' in 1815. I shudder to think of the situation in 1399.