Is the nomadic trait, along with "pop growth from immigration", broken?

[fusei]

fusei, I'm a bit confused by some of the things you're saying so I just want to make sure we're all on the same page:

1) are you aware that positive immigration on a planet requires there to be negative immigration (aka emigration) somewhere else*? If it's not from somewhere else in your empire it's from another empire entirely.
2) if you are seeing positive immigration on all your planets it's because you're stealing growth from your allies and neighbours due to you having a nicer and more desirable empire.
3) assuming pop teleportation followed the same logic, replacing immigration growth with teleportation would not cause you to lose pops unless you were already leaking pop growth to other empires.

Given all of the above surely objections to losing pops via teleportation only apply in situations where you'd already be losing /pop /growth/ due to emigration? I can understand your issue with transport hubs, democracy etc. accelerating pop loss in situations where you were already losing pops, but this could be remedied by making a distinction between in-empire movement and between-empire movement and setting transport hubs and democracy to only boost the former.

*due to weird stuff about how migration modifiers work it will not sum to 0

1/2) That's my point I can use migration to siphon off growth from other empires and auto-resettle to distribute pops inside my own empire.

3) That would require to also auto-resettle for other reasons than unemployment, like lack of housing or having a new colony somewhere. At this point it's the non-deterministic variant of the current system and I don't like random if it can be avoided.

 

[HFY]

3) That would require to also auto-resettle for other reasons than unemployment, like lack of housing or having a new colony somewhere. At this point it's the non-deterministic variant of the current system and I don't like random if it can be avoided.

You are fighting for unavoidable, random pop trashing.

You do not want to avoid random negative events, you just want to shut down an improvement.

 

[fusei]

That really does not follow.

You know, just for you I switched off all migration treaties, guess what happened. No migration at all.

The game likes to pick the least represented species to grow, so emigration pressure inside your empire is not the only -- nor even the most likely -- source of trashed growth.

Well you can no more prove to me that it does happen than I can prove to you that it doesn't.

Then you're either running a trivially small empire or you will run out of Influence swiftly, and then not have any permanent advantage (nor have any Influence which seems a bit rough).

Corvee can be removed.

See at this point even if you make the system equivalent, you'd have to make it actually better before anyone considers spending effort on it over fixing the current system.

you just want to shut down an improvement.

I like how much power you're ascribing to me. Nothings stopping from suggesting everything you like, but you really can't make me like it.

 

[SirBlackAxe]

The game likes to pick the least represented species to grow, so emigration pressure inside your empire is not the only -- nor even the most likely -- source of trashed growth.

Quick question - do you know where this is handled in code? This definitely seems like something I'd be interested in modding a bit.

EDIT: Found part of it in defines:

NEW_POP_SPECIES_RANDOMNESS          = 0.5    # The higher this is, the more random species selection of new pops will be. Does not apply for assembly, as this would mean randomly picking obsolete species
NEW_POP_SAME_SPECIES_WEIGHT         = 1.0    # The higher this is, the more new pops will be weighted by number of same or subspecies pops
NEW_POP_EXACT_SPECIES_WEIGHT        = 0.5    # The higher this is, the more new pops will be weighted by number of exact same species pops
NEW_POP_SLAVERY_WEIGHT              = 0.25   # The higher this is, the more new pops will tend to be balanced between enslaved and non-enslaved species
NEW_POP_SPECIES_DIV                 = 0.05   # The higher this is, the more planets will tend to grow species that are underrepresented on the planet
NEW_POP_HABITABILITY_THRESHOLD      = 0.75   # If habitability is under this, apply exponentially increasing penalties to new pop weight
NEW_POP_LOW_HABITABILITY_PENALTY    = 2      # If habitability is under current threshold, apply increasing penalties to new pop weight
NEW_POP_HOMEWORLD_MULT              = 2      # Pops have increased weight for growing on their homeworld
NEW_POP_ASSEMBLY_TRAIT_MULT         = 2      # Extra weight per trait point for assembled pops
NEW_POP_GROWTH_RATE_MULT            = 0.5    # How much does species' total predicted growth matter for new pop weight
NEW_POP_IMMIGRATION_MOD_MULT        = 1      # How much does species immigration growth mod trait matter for new pop weight (when there is immigration)

I'd still like to locate the actual equation though.

 

[Nevars]

but this could be remedied by making a distinction between in-empire movement and between-empire movement and setting transport hubs and democracy to only boost the former.

That striking me as rather undemocratic to me tho jk lol

 

[Critical Ethics]

1/2) That's my point I can use migration to siphon off growth from other empires and auto-resettle to distribute pops inside my own empire.

Under a teleport based system this would still be true. You'd steal pops directly from other, less popular empires and presumably occasionally lose pops to more popular ones.

3) That would require to also auto-resettle for other reasons than unemployment, like lack of housing or having a new colony somewhere. At this point it's the non-deterministic variant of the current system and I don't like random if it can be avoided.

And that's fair. I'm also iffy about it being too random but I'm far iffier about having two competing systems, one of which deletes pops and has weird unintuitive modifiers. Which iffiness is more important to someone is genuinely a matter of their own personal opinion, though IMPO "unintuitive" should be the death knell of a mechanic.

How would you feel about something more deterministic but still teleportation based? Like some kind of emigration counter?

 

[Critical Ethics]

That striking me as rather undemocratic to me tho jk lol

If you wanted to leave you shouldn't have voted for the not letting you leave party

 

[HFY]

Quick question - do you know where this is handled in code? This definitely seems like something I'd be interested in modding a bit.

EDIT: Found part of it in defines:

NEW_POP_SPECIES_RANDOMNESS          = 0.5    # The higher this is, the more random species selection of new pops will be. Does not apply for assembly, as this would mean randomly picking obsolete species
NEW_POP_SAME_SPECIES_WEIGHT         = 1.0    # The higher this is, the more new pops will be weighted by number of same or subspecies pops
NEW_POP_EXACT_SPECIES_WEIGHT        = 0.5    # The higher this is, the more new pops will be weighted by number of exact same species pops
NEW_POP_SLAVERY_WEIGHT              = 0.25   # The higher this is, the more new pops will tend to be balanced between enslaved and non-enslaved species
NEW_POP_SPECIES_DIV                 = 0.05   # The higher this is, the more planets will tend to grow species that are underrepresented on the planet
NEW_POP_HABITABILITY_THRESHOLD      = 0.75   # If habitability is under this, apply exponentially increasing penalties to new pop weight
NEW_POP_LOW_HABITABILITY_PENALTY    = 2      # If habitability is under current threshold, apply increasing penalties to new pop weight
NEW_POP_HOMEWORLD_MULT              = 2      # Pops have increased weight for growing on their homeworld
NEW_POP_ASSEMBLY_TRAIT_MULT         = 2      # Extra weight per trait point for assembled pops
NEW_POP_GROWTH_RATE_MULT            = 0.5    # How much does species' total predicted growth matter for new pop weight
NEW_POP_IMMIGRATION_MOD_MULT        = 1      # How much does species immigration growth mod trait matter for new pop weight (when there is immigration)

I'd still like to locate the actual equation though.

I'm not sure it's accessible to modding -- you can find the definition for variables like NEW_POP_SPECIES_DIV which look promising, but I couldn't find where those variables were used, so I think it's in compiled code and not the interpreted text.

You know, just for you I switched off all migration treaties, guess what happened. No migration at all.

Are you pretending to misunderstand, or is this you doing your best?

I don't want to be unkind if this is your best.

 

[fusei]

And that's fair. I'm also iffy about it being too random but I'm far iffier about having two competing systems, one of which deletes pops and has weird unintuitive modifiers. Which iffiness is more important to someone is genuinely a matter of their own personal opinion, though IMPO "unintuitive" should be the death knell of a mechanic.

How would you feel about something more deterministic but still teleportation based? Like some kind of emigration counter?

Perhaps I'm just too familiar with this kind of abstraction, but I don't find the these modifiers unituitive, despite being not particularly logical.

My opinion on an emigration counter would probably depend on the actual implementation.

 

[Critical Ethics]

Perhaps I'm just too familiar with this kind of abstraction, but I don't find the these modifiers unituitive, despite being not particularly logical.

My opinion on an emigration counter would probably depend on the actual implementation.

The unintuitive bit, for me anyway, is how things like nomadic work. Nomadic currently generates bonus pop growth through emigration. If you lose 1 point of pop growth from emigration on one planet then you gain 1.15 points of immigration on a different planet. That's weird to me. And it makes it hard to tell when other mechanics are talking about that vs talking about increasing immigration pressure.

 

[HFY]

I vaguely remember it contributing to pop growth in prior versions, but now it doesn't seem to do anything anymore. Am I misunderstanding how it works, like is it an increase in chance a pop will automatically resettle? I feel like it's a useless trait now, along with that corvee civic.

The unintuitive bit, for me anyway, is how things like nomadic work. Nomadic currently generates bonus pop growth through emigration. If you lose 1 point of pop growth from emigration on one planet then you gain 1.15 points of immigration on a different planet. That's weird to me. And it makes it hard to tell when other mechanics are talking about that vs talking about increasing immigration pressure.

Now that I've spent an hour or so watching actual growth rates I think you're both correct for 3.1 -- it seems like emigration push / immigraiton pull simply aren't counted, and have no in-game effect except (a) enabling random unepxected species to grow (which the game code prioritizes) and (b) suddenly jerking away access to those species like Lucy holding a football for Charlie Brown to kick, trashing months of growth.

Growing a pop via immigration (where there is no pop of that species yet) seems to happen at the same rate as growth of the colony majority species.

I've been arguing from experience in earlier versions, as if it were still happening, but now that I'm looking at the growth numbers in a new game there's just no effect.

Perhaps I'm just too familiar with this kind of abstraction, but I don't find the these modifiers unituitive, despite being not particularly logical.

I mean if it's so intuitive to you, did you notice that it wasn't actually happening?

What I was looking for was confirmation that an AI starting a new colony could still trash my pop growing from its species -- which happened, it was a Lithoid with some extra-slow growth trait so a nice long window and indeed it does still happen -- and I found that these guys seem to be exactly right, the growth numbers just don't seem to care about immigration / emigration.

Maybe there's a threshold below which they're ignored and I'm still under it? But in earlier versions I saw emigration / immigration effects on growth with my first colony, so I think this version is just different.

 

[TrotBot]

Why did a pop move out? It was unemployed, and the most attractive prospect was not in your empire.

utopian abundant pops should ignore unemployment and not want to leave your empire because of that

 

[fusei]

The unintuitive bit, for me anyway, is how things like nomadic work. Nomadic currently generates bonus pop growth through emigration. If you lose 1 point of pop growth from emigration on one planet then you gain 1.15 points of immigration on a different planet. That's weird to me. And it makes it hard to tell when other mechanics are talking about that vs talking about increasing immigration pressure.

I know it's not logical in any way, but it makes nomadic an unambiguously positive trait, that's why it is the way it is. What I actually dislike is that it's capped at 10 (used to be 5) base migration per planet. So you can lose 1 growth per month on 25 planets and only get 10 on the planet they all migrate to.

The game uses 2 different terms immigration push and pop growth from immigration, but I agree that they look similar at a glance.

I mean if it's so intuitive to you, did you notice that it wasn't actually happening?

What I was looking for was confirmation that an AI starting a new colony could still trash my pop growing from its species -- which happened, it was a Lithoid with some extra-slow growth trait so a nice long window and indeed it does still happen -- and I found that these guys seem to be exactly right, the growth numbers just don't seem to care about immigration / emigration.

Maybe there's a threshold below which they're ignored and I'm still under it? But in earlier versions I saw emigration / immigration effects on growth with my first colony, so I think this version is just different.

That's a bug that prematurely removes the emigration push for having a new colony. I am aware of that. Actually I don't really like that modifier and would prefer each colony to create emigration push more gradually than this.

 

[TrotBot]

I know it's not logical in any way, but it makes nomadic an unambiguously positive trait, that's why it is the way it is. What I actually dislike is that it's capped at 10 (used to be 5) base migration per planet. So you can lose 1 growth per month on 25 planets and only get 10 on the planet they all migrate to.

Damn, if it was uncapped it would really help non-conquest growth.

 

[fusei]

Damn, if it was uncapped it would really help non-conquest growth.

Well it's in the defines so it can be easily changed.

        MAX_GROWTH_FROM_IMMIGRATION            = 10